Long live democracy

[boru]

The thread is about Poland's independence. If there was a thread about say, the Emancipation Proclamation and I came in and said "slavery's not so bad, at least the slaves got free health care," that would be sorta like taking a poop in the punchbowl wouldn't it? And I'd expect to be called much worse than a bot.

[Great_Mage_Atari]

Alright. So my jist of this is that the communism in Poland was terrible. Horrendous, actually.

@boru- Your comparing slavery to communism? I would've gone with like, monarchies.

[Dunno]

Well, this thread isn't just about Poland. It is about fall of communism, an event that changed the world. It started in Poland, but it affected the whole world, so everyone has a right to drop his thoughts here. I personally think that Neuromancer said it best, communism will never be good, because it simply doesn't work. Communism works properly only in Utopia.

[Dixie]

I agree that communism is utopic. It's not necessarily that it's inherantly evil - although the USSR was likely bad in that it was a dictatorship (which is said should happen in Marx's book, AFAIK, but should end relatively quickly, just to drive the rich and opposants away). Imho, the big problem with communism is that it's in man's nature to want more, and feel like his hard work actually gives him something. Working for the well being of the society is all nice and good, but want it or not, at the end of the day, when the guy breaking his back workingwitnesses he is paid just as much as his barely-trying neighbor, it's not a big incentive to continue working hard. And the collectivity is the big looser.

Although this doesn,t mean that pure capitalism (which arguably doesn't exist anymore) isn't all the better. I'm personnally not a big fan of US economic policy, I lean more towards a slightly socialist capitalism. I'm more of a mid-left winger, if you will.

And about democracy and politics: I think it is very ironic how the US are supposedly the flagship of democracy, seeing how their bipartisannery fails at being very democratic, imo, and seeing how it's really a big popularity contest, with misinformation and sophisms aplenty. Sadly, it seems to be heading that way up here in Canada too.

Since we're talking politics, let me humor you a tad longer. I personnally am a big fan of a proportionnal-mix election system. In this system, you vote twice: once for your circonscription's candidate, and once for the party you'd like. The candidate are elected and represent maybe 40% of the chairs. The other 60% are the votes the party got. With such a system, someone like Stephen Harper can't get the majority with grossly 40% of the votes. He'd have had a minor government (sorry if some of the terms are wrong, I'm more used to these topics in french). Although still having circonscriptions is important, as it allows distant regions and isolated viewpoints to still be represented, unlike in totally proportionnal palces like Israel.

Sorry for off-topicness.

[Shinobody]

USA is "flagship of democracy" only nominally, really.
@GMA: And comparing slavery to communism is not bad comparison. And comparing monarchy to communism could offend some people.
Like the [acronym=Because you seem to have real talent for putting foot in your mouth, don't you...]taste of your feet?[/acronym]
As for communism: It is in fact impossible to execute in a long run, and on a big scale. Maybe, if you would start with robots... But humanity? No way. That's fighting basics of human nature. Humans are, naturally, selfish. They also naturally will help each other... which, ironically showed up in Poland, during times of communism. People helped themselves, against oppressive system.

[averyimaginativename]

Humans are, naturally, selfish. They also naturally will help each other... which, ironically showed up in Poland, during times of communism. People helped themselves, against oppressive system.

I'm not from a communist country myself, however, my missus is and this matches what she says.


The problem with the naturally helping each other part though, is that it stops once we reach comfort. How many text-book liberals quickly became national socialists during the recession (a recession - lets put this into perspective - where people are having to cut down to one holiday a year, and complain about it using their mobile phones and laptops while driving to work)? Trade unions in this country have been on strike demanding British Jobs for British workers - ironically, most of them were working for multinationals. If 90% of the people I know had their way, immigrants (legal or otherwise) would be shot on sight.

The problem as far as I see it is a more, more, more for me and F4 the sick and needy attitude, unless you are the sick and needy.


Ideologically, I'm the sandal wearing fringe of the left wing. Pragmatically, when you consider what people are actually like, you've got take another stance.

[Great_Mage_Atari]

@GMA: And comparing slavery to communism is not bad comparison. And comparing monarchy to communism could offend some people.

Seems almost ironic, since the people of Great Britain have been trying to get rid of the royalty for a long time. But that is off topic, is it not?
Here is something on topic (I hope):
Now, the whole premise of Communism (or the original premise, before incompetents screwed with it) was for everybody to be equal (literally). Everybody gets paid the same, gets the same benefits, etc. etc. etc. Now, it's not inheritantly evil, it just has a bad rep because evil people have been running them. The difference between a totalitarian government and a communist government (the one not run by total lunatics) is that the totalitarian is ruled by force, almost always by one individual. The communist government is ruled with the thought of no private property and that all men are created equal (quoting this here from something America loves). Communism turns sour when an oligarchy or dictator comes into a country/state and seizes control of the entire body as a whole. Now, the dictatorship thinks not of the people at all, only of the power and money that comes with the rule.
Adolf Hitler was a dictator, and used fear and bloodshed to rule his people. Mikhail Gorbachev (USSR) was not (he just liked big missiles is all).
Now, comparing the two, a dictatorship seems pretty much worse to me. But you have to take into consideration A) the basic state of the country/state at the time of impeding communism and B) the basic wants and needs of the people.
Now, as for the situation in Poland, it is still a very bad thing to remember, but something to rejoice in the fact that it is over.
We all need to not be so quick to judge and get our facts straight (ironic, coming from a goof ball like me, isn't it?). I did study up on the topic, and still believe in a democracy for people who want it. Still, it all depends now, doesn't it?

Sorry if this is off-topic. Just needed to educate and prove some points. Thought I may as well make some sense while I'm here.
P.S. Forum moderators have mercy on this post.

[Gambit]

You can't really "prefer democracy over communism". It's sad how much the red scare still looms over some of us Americans.

Communism is an economics system. You could have a democratic + communist country, just like you could have a totalitarian government with a free market. I just can't think of any examples of the former having happened yet.

[doofus-01]

You can't really "prefer democracy over communism". It's sad how much the red scare still looms over some of us Americans.

You're blowing against the wind, my friend. Every red-blooded American knows Capitalism/Democracy/Freedom is Good and Socialism/Communism/Muslimsim/Atheism/Government is Bad!

[Shinobody]

@GMA: You're saying Gorbachev... But would you say the same thing about Lenin, or Stalin? They weren't as different from Hitler as it seems, it was just the fact that Stalin was ally to UK and France, that's why he had not as bad publicity. That doesn't mean he has committed less atrocities.(About just that "liked big missiles" thing, no comments. Just... No comments.)

Now, comparing the two, a dictatorship seems pretty much worse to me. But you have to take into consideration A) the basic state of the country/state at the time of impeding communism and B) the basic wants and needs of the people.
Now, as for the situation in Poland, it is still to be decided (obviously).

WTH are you talking about?! There is no communism in Poland from over 20 years. This is what this topic is about. And noone, apart from some really weird ultra-hardcore-socialist-extremist wants to bring it back. Nobody.
You say about "communist government not run by lunatics". Give one example of communist country which has not turned into totalitarian regime in the end.
Please, unless you have basic understanding of the topic in question, refrain from posting. That wasn't educating, that was misinformation.
If you think idea of communism has anything to do with practical communism, I suggest some reading. Start from basic things, like George Orwell's Animal Farm.

[Great_Mage_Atari]

Hehe, sorry. Typing this and a thesis paper at the same time, got words confused on both pages. Edited it to make sense.
Now Stalin and Lenin were also involved in a world war, mind you, while Gorbachev was not (not officially, anyways). So the 3 really should not be put side by side, as they had different things on their plates at the time of course.
Now, as for the counties that were under communism becoming a dictatorship, it really depends on your own definition of communism. Communism can be where the government does very little, giving the illusion that they have total control, or it can be where the government dictates, but mostly money, earnings, and the market.
It would seem that people also get confused with the differences between totalitarian and socialist governments (neither of which are the same). Cuba was a communist country, now turned into a socialist country (there's the one example, I presume. Just for the heck of it, Russia is now a democracy too. And Hungary).
NOW ON TOPIC:
I have studied the Polish Revolution prior to writing this article. I do admire the people's will to succeed in what they believed in. The hardships they faced must have been horrible. I think we all need to admire these people, as they are heroes as almost nobody has been before. They started an uproar that shook Europe, and eventually lead to the downfall of communism in neighboring European countries. We have a lot to thank them for.

[Crendgrim]

What are you talking about?

Wesnoth has a monarchy!!!

[Gambit]

it really depends on your own definition of communism.

Okay sure. If you want to redefine it to mean something it doesn't. I will now define it as anything vaguely Canadian.

What are you talking about?

Wesnoth has a monarchy!!!

Didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.

[Great_Mage_Atari]

Okay sure. If you want to redefine it to mean something it doesn't. I will now define it as anything vaguely Canadian.

You have to understand not everybody thinks the same. Most people who make quotes like this have a very main-lined and main-streamed way of thinking.
I'm not trying to be the enemy, only the educator.
@Gambit: There is no redefining, only personal opinion (Ex: If I like pie, Joe Shmoe sitting next to me doesn't necessarily have to. He's got his opinion, I have mine.)
Sorry for off-topicness. Sorry for digging myself a bigger hole.

[boru]

About a mile from my home, there is a statue. It's rather striking.


It's the kind of thing you see, and you want to do some research to figure out what it's about. I suppose that's the idea. The more I dug into the story of Katyn and what happened there in 1940, the more there was to learn. It's almost inconceivable that a massacre of this size would be done by an ally in wartime, but historical documents prove that Stalin approved of the killing of over 20 thousand Polish officers, intellectuals and their family members.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Poles were not permitted to mourn the victims of the 1940 massacre until after 1989, when they finally got their country back.

There is a very good film about the incident (simply titled "Katyn"), but the ending of it is almost unbearable to watch, as one person after another is shot in the head and dumped into a mass grave.

I am not inclined to see a system like communism as a purely abstract concept. Communism is not geometry. It was designed to be used here in the real world, and when the design has been put in place, it has very often led to piles of corpses. Not just at the point of the revolution, but decades after, in endless purges and crackdowns. In China, the Great Leap Forward led to 16-46 million deaths http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

Other political systems are flawed too but it's like comparing apples to nuclear waste.