Osama Bin Laden is Dead

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zookeeper
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by zookeeper »

Gambit wrote:
Frogger5 wrote:That is reason enough to complain, let alone all the people he killed, and all the people the US military killed.
He wasn't murdered. He resisted capture and went down shooting.
That doesn't make any sense though. You can't break into someone's house, point guns at them and then when they pull a gun of their own in order to defend themselves, use that as a justification for why killing them wasn't murder... especially when you're that it's likely to end that way and yet you go ahead anyway. Otherwise anyone could break into your home, point guns at you and then say it wasn't murder if they end up killing you because you resisted.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Gambit »

Am I an internationally wanted criminal who has admitted to plotting the slaughtering of thousands of innocent people?

Though I suppose that means the seals should have identified themselves and made it clear they intended to capture him (if they did intend that, which we may never know).
Gah you guys keep changing my mind.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Velensk »

All things considered, announcing themselves and their intent would probably just give their foes more time to prepare, thus likely more casualties on our side.
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zookeeper
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by zookeeper »

Gambit wrote:Am I an internationally wanted criminal who has admitted to plotting the slaughtering of thousands of innocent people?

Though I suppose that means the seals should have identified themselves and made it clear they intended to capture him (if they did intend that, which we may never know).
Gah you guys keep changing my mind.
I didn't say there was anything wrong with trying to capture him, unlawful as it may or may not have been. The point is that if OBL sees US soldiers inside his house shooting at his henchmen then it's a pretty darn reasonable expectation that they're trying to kill him regardless of whether they're telling him to surrender or not, meaning that his self-defense doesn't affect the question of whether killing him is murder or not.

If you think that an aggressor is an immediate lethal threat to you, regardless of who you both are, then trying to defend yourself is an entirely fair and reasonable reaction, meaning that the aggressor can't use that as a justification for killing you.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Velensk »

Him defending himself is still a perfectly good reason to be shooting at him even if it is a perfectly reasonable thing for him to do.

There are times when it is very reasonable for two groups of people to be shooting at each other and the aggressor is not inherently in the wrong.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Viliam »

Dunno wrote:American Army killed Osama because he killed innocent people in 9/11. But what happens next? Another fanatic will start killing because Osama got killed. Etc, etc.
Mathematically speaking, if you kill one person per 3000 dead on your side, and if the other side keeps the same revenge ratio, the vendetta will eventually stop.

The sum of infinite sequence a0 + a0×q + a0×q×q + a0×q×q×q + ... is finite if q < 1.

On the other hand, how many people were killed "because of" 9/11? Maybe q > 1. But then probably q > 1 without Osama, too.

Personally, I don't care that he died, but I would prefer if he answered some questions first.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by woodmouse »

Just saw a special thing about it in the news, where the people living in the area were interviewed, all said that there was no shooting or anything... :|
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Pentarctagon »

woodmouse wrote:Just saw a special thing about it in the news, where the people living in the area were interviewed, all said that there was no shooting or anything... :|
as if there wasn't going to be enough conspiracy theories as it was :annoyed:
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Dunno »

It looks like everyone ignored me mentioning flashbangs and gas. If the intention of US was capturing Osama, I'm sure they would come up with something that can knock out multiple targets. Especially if they were in a house. So either it was a very unprofessional mission, or killing him was planned from the very beginning.
Frogger5 wrote:(...) But naturally they want revenge and don't care for any other options other than killing him.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Have you even read what I've said? I agree with you 100% about revenge! In my honest opinion, he simply wasn't a person who could have been safely placed on an island. Nor did he deserve being treated like that. I think a prison, or at least a civilized execution would have been better than a bullet to the head.

Oh, and touche, Viliam :wink:
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

For all of those who feel jubilant and think that some kind of "justice" has been served, remember this: Osama bin Laden used to be a freedom fighter when he was fighting the Soviets, as was the Taleban, even though their ideology was exactly the same then. If he had staged something similar to 9/11 in Soviet Union, do you sincerely think that it would have made him a "terrorist" in the Western eyes?

Saddam Hussein was a good guy when he was fighting Iran, never mind that that was the same period he committed his worst atrocities. He didn't become a bad guy for gassing Kurds, not for being a brutal dictator, not really for invading Kuwait either. He became a bad guy for invading Kuwait without a permission from the West.

Hosni Mubarak was a good guy all through his decades of brutally dictatoring over Egypt, he only became a bad guy when his ass was handed to him by his own people and he ceased to be an asset to the West.

Plenty of more examples could be found, but I think you get the picture.

Bin Laden was a mass murderer for sure, but at least he didn't pretend to murder for freedom and democracy, he was quite clear of his intentions of subjecting everyone to totalitarian theocracy and taking the world back to Middle Age. He never pretended to wring his hands about "collateral damage," he shamelessly took the credit for all the civilians he killed and said they deserved to die. That's way more honesty our own leaders are able to claim.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Joram »

I have a friend in the military (who actually knew about all this over a week ago). He said that the military didn't even know Osama was there. They knew that some high profile terrorists were there, but didn't know it was him. They went in, a fight started, and a lot of shooting happened. It was only after it was over that they realized that this one particular corpse looked familiar.

They didn't release the information right away because they wanted to confirm that it actually was Osama with DNA tests first.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by boru »

Speaking as someone who was inside the World Trade Center in 1993 when it was bombed, I gotta say please don't judge the people of my beautiful city too harshly please. We've seen some amazing stuff and most of us never went through a day of combat training, we just found ourselves on the front lines (so to speak). Only six died in 1993 but as you know it was a lot worse the next time around.

War forces you into more and more evil acts as it drags on. No matter how hard you try to keep your hands clean, it ain't gonna happen, especially wars that carry on year after year. Some countries feel better on the sidelines, loudly saying "Tisk tisk!" as innocent people are slaughtered, but I'm not sure that is such an ethical choice. Honestly, it doesn't look like there is an ethical choice in war. You can sit back and watch it, like the world did with Rwanda, (and currently with Syria, Darfur, etc.) or you can dive in and try to fix it but either way, you know innocent lives will be cut short. There's no easy answer and there's no complicated answer either, just a bloody answer.

If you want to send Bin Laden to a place where he can do whatever he wants, fine, send him to Bali.

Oh wait, Al Qaeda killed 202 people there, maybe they don't want him. Madrid? 191 innocent victims there. Kenya? Over 200. London? Cairo? Somewhere in Iraq, maybe? Not likely.

Can Osama sleep in your house?

Didn't think so. Maybe we're all better off with him at the bottom of the sea.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Hulavuta »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/ ... g-accounts

new news about the assault. Apparently Obama was NOT armed.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by 8680 »

Hulavuta wrote:Apparently Obama was NOT armed.
What does that have to do with anything?

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Crushmaster »

8680 wrote:
Hulavuta wrote:Apparently Obama was NOT armed.
What does that have to do with anything?
He meant to put an "S", rather than a "B." After all, their names are quite close in terms of the letters that make them up.
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