Osama Bin Laden is Dead

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Gambit » May 2nd, 2011, 1:43 pm

Velensk wrote:If you forbid civilian casualties altogether, it makes it very easy for your enemy to put themselves in a position where you cannot attack them at all.
IDC. We're America. We can do it. I buy into the hype that we have the best military in the world (We'd better with as much as we spend on it), so this is thoroughly disappointing.

In a real combat situation in an actual war (and on a macro scale) what you say makes perfect sense. But this was a small isolated mission to invade a compound and get one guy. No civilians should have been hurt. And nobody should have been killed unless they were actively shooting.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Velensk » May 2nd, 2011, 1:55 pm

And how do you deal with things like hostages/human shields? No matter how good our equipment (in fact, if attempting to avoid civilian casualties there is a limit to how much extra good equipment helps at all) and to a certain extent no matter how good our training the inability to fire in situations when civilians are present due to the potential for ricochet, shrapnel, misses, or what have is tactically crippling. If you were the man on the ground and in the middle of a fire fight you don't have a lot of time to think and your risk is to great to take to many chances.

That said, I don't know the details of this particular engagement and it could be that the conduct of the soldiers was overly callous or unacceptable but I would suggest you don't put it down too hard on the men in the fray.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by cookie » May 2nd, 2011, 1:56 pm

I don't get the reason behind shooting him. Why didn't they just capture him and then have it gone down more smoothly with politics and stuff? It would've had the same result. The only reason I can see is with shooting on spot, is the symbolism and statement it would bring up. :lol2:
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Gambit » May 2nd, 2011, 1:58 pm

Velensk wrote: That said, I don't know the details of this particular engagement and it could be that the conduct of the soldiers was overly callous or unacceptable but I would suggest you don't put it down too hard on the men in the fray.
Of course. We're not even sure any civilians were harmed. I'm just very suspicious of the word play.
And how do you deal with things like hostages/human shields? No matter how good our equipment (in fact, if attempting to avoid civilian casualties there is a limit to how much extra good equipment helps at all) and to a certain extent no matter how good our training the inability to fire in situations when civilians are present due to the potential for ricochet, shrapnel, misses, or what have is tactically crippling.
We've got some great nonlethal/crowd control weapons. I'm positive we have something that will knock out a room full of people.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Velensk » May 2nd, 2011, 2:19 pm

True enough I suppose. Again, I don't know the specifics of the situation. It may be that some of them would have been ineffective or were not deployed for whatever reason but I do know that things don't always go as planned and people in a combat situation must act fast.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by bigkahuna » May 2nd, 2011, 4:27 pm

Sapient wrote:I rejoice that justice prevails and I rejoice that Osama bin Laden won't be able to hurt any more people. I also regret that he died before ever turning from his wickedness. Those two sentiments are not a contradiction. However people are not emphasizing the latter sentiment because it would seem to make light of the suffering of those who, arguably, are far more deserving of our sympathies -- e.g., his victims. Makes sense to me.

On the other hand I'm sure there are plenty of people here who just wanted binLaden dead, who viewed him as inhuman and beyond redemption, unworthy of any love or sympathy. However, just because someone rejoiced at the news doesn't mean you can lump them into that category.
QFT. I'm glad that Osama won't be orchestrating any more terrorist attacks, but at the same time I pity him. The death of no one should be applauded.
Shadowmaster wrote:23:54:27 <shadowmaster> PEOPLE
23:54:45 <shadowmaster> OSAMA BIN LADEN #04 IS DEAD
23:55:00 <shadowmaster> WE'VE GOT ONLY THREE MORE CLONES TO KILL BEFORE THE ORIGINAL FACES US IN A GREAT CLIMATIC BOSS BATTLE
23:55:02 <shadowmaster> YAY
:lol2: Very true.

Also, about civilian casualties [WARNING: Possible American bias]. I believe that they should be avoided at all costs, of course. However, most of the enemies that the U.S. has been fighting in recent wars (terrorists, guerilla fighters, Vietnam Communist fighters) have been using civilians as:

A. Body-shields
B. Bomb-carriers
C. Bait

In these cases, occasionally civilian casualties are necessary to ensure that countless others are saved. It's a gruesome task, choosing between lives.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Sangel » May 2nd, 2011, 4:55 pm

Gambit wrote:"No Americans were harmed, and we took care to avoid civilian casualties."

Why can't he also say that no civilians were harmed? Does that mean some were harmed and we'll hear about it years from now through Wikileaks? Also are there times when the United States military is not taking care to avoid civilian casualties?
.
He can't say that no civilians were harmed because one woman was killed and others injured, supposedly after being used as human shields by Al Qaeda. I personally find it tragic that Osama Bin Laden managed to have more innocents killed, even in his death.

Nevertheless, I believe you have unrealistic expectations about the capabilities of US special forces (or any special forces for that matter). When facing multiple opponents, using multiple human shields, on their own turf, it's nearly impossible to incapacitate all enemies before one of them has a chance to pull the trigger.

While we should all be mourning the death of further innocents, let's not lose sight of the fact that there is now one less dedicated mass murderer in the world. I'm not a fan of the death penalty, but the world is a better place without Osama Bin Laden in it.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by ancestral » May 2nd, 2011, 5:15 pm

It’s symbolic to the US, but to al-Qaeda it probably doesn’t matter much. He dies a martyr which “immortalizes” him to his followers.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Dunno » May 2nd, 2011, 7:14 pm

ancestral wrote: He dies a martyr which “immortalizes” him to his followers.
Good point. Which makes me think about this cruel wheel of violence we're stuck in. You American Army killed Osama because he killed innocent people in 9/11. But what happens next? Another fanatic will start killing because Osama got killed. Etc, etc. Killing Osama, in fact, didn't do us anything good except making a story Yankees can (and probably will) brag about. Imho, the only way to stop killing, is simply stopping killing. America had the chance to be over vengeance and put Osama in prison, after a fair trial. They didn't. So... (here comes the depressing thought) how exactly do we differ from him...? We all agree he was a murderer, but a trial in a court of law would have been a symbol of democracy and civilization. Instead, uncle sam decided to show everyone that he has the power to pull the trigger whenever HE decides, not because some silly court told him to do that. Truth be told, there aren't many steps from here to totalitarianism...

P.S: don't get me wrong, I'm not justifying Osama's deeds. I only think this wasn't the right was to solve this problem.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Hulavuta » May 2nd, 2011, 7:46 pm

I'm not sure if I got all the facts right, but Osama being killed would have been as hard to avoid as a civilian death, if he was fighting back. (I don't know if he was)

But honestly, they should have captured him, given him a fair trial like Sadam got, (even though we all know he's terrible he deserves a trial..) and they should have interrogated him for more information. Like what has already been said, by shadowmaster and Dunno, there's just gonna be another guy popping up sooner or later.


but lolz, I just got in the car this morning, I was still half asleep and all of a sudden Rick Stacy yells: "OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD!!!"
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Velensk » May 2nd, 2011, 9:05 pm

You think putting him in court would make any difference to the people who 'martyr' him?

They don't respect our courts, they don't care about our accusations (or are proud of them), and they don't support our rulings (and were I them I certainly wouldn't either.

Putting him in prison would not be any better than killing him except as publicity for those who believe killing to be inherently wrong. Jihad doesn't care whether or not we kill him or not as he'll get his reward either way and we are still the evil that needs to be stopped. I suppose that prison would offer the option of freeing him at a later date, but I suspect there would be many problems with any proposition that revolves around us freeing him and I think we'd rather avoid any propositions that involve them attempting to free him.

This isn't about vengeance (EDIT: Well, it probably is for many, but it's in large part a self perpetuating side effect). It is about the way people think and how people perceive what they must do, and the way everyone is taught by those around them. Those things don't end just because the shooting dies down for a short while nor because a leader is killed by a corrupt court (from their perspective) rather than in the heat of action (even putting him in prison is just slowly killing someone, a man who can do nothing is practically dead).
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Hulavuta » May 2nd, 2011, 9:24 pm

I still don't support JUST killing him though, we could have gotten some information from him, unlikely or not. Even if we couldn't, well he'd still be dead and it'll be the same as it is now. Nothing lost, and so much that could be gained.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Frogger5 » May 3rd, 2011, 12:44 am

I think they should have exiled him where no Americans can reach him, and let him live out the rest of his life doing whatever the hell he wants.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Moribund » May 3rd, 2011, 12:47 am

Frogger5 wrote:I think they should have exiled him where no Americans can reach him, and let him live out the rest of his life doing whatever the hell he wants.
on taxpayer money?

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Post by Frogger5 » May 3rd, 2011, 1:23 am

lol :lol2: No that would really sent them over the edge.
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