Time Travel/Chaos Question

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Hulavuta
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

Post by Hulavuta »

See...I wanted a straight answer. Let's simply say there's a time travel "room" and only things in that room are affected. Let's disregard any principles or external variables that might affect the outcome.
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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

Then you'd see the same result, because you are observing the same event. Not a different 'version' or 'instance' of a similar event, but a very same event. See the illustration below. There is only one event and two instances of observers witnessing it.

Image

Here we are supposing that the appearance of the time traveler does not cause a bifurcation of timelines.
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

Post by Midnight_Carnival »

johndh wrote: This. No such thing as random, only the appearance thereof. Something looks random if we don't understand the factors that make it happen the way it does, but that all falls away as soon as we understand the mechanisms.
In that case there is no such thing as chaos, only a huge complex pattern we don't have enough ram to compute. This means that entropy is going from a simpler form of order to a more complex one?

Personal feelings on the subject: if it were possible to travel backward in time you would create a seperate time-stream since you would not want to get really young and then be deconcieved suddenly, so let's just say your time stream is T1 and the timstream you left is T2... T1 is no longer = T2 or you wouldn't be able to travel in time without being deconcieved (an image of a sperm cell being sucked out of an ovum) So T2 was a sequence right? you leave the T2 sequence at some point and then want to rejoin it at an earlier stage, I think you can't, you would have to stay on T1 because the act of joining the T2 sequence before the split would be something which did not occour in T2, hence you are not in T2 any more (perhaps T3-n if you like, but definately not T2).
Will the dice roll be different? will you end up having green skin, webbed toes and a forked tounge? Well the new time-stream is different to the old one, but unless the quantum-voodoo you unleash in time-travel really causes major changes, it comes down to wheter you presence distracts the thrower momentarilly, changes air-currents, humidity-friction, etc.. and causes a different result.

Sometimes I'd like to go back to the first fish to walk on land and stand on it. :twisted:
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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Hulavuta
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

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You wouldn't need to. Simply killing anyone (or thing) in any time period in the past will create equally ridiculous events.
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

Post by Tonepoet »

On the first post I asked myself "Isn't this just a rephrased version of the Schrodinger's Cat paradox, simply posed within the frame of time travel?" and this exchange all but confirms it. We need to ask if observation itself and subsequent reobservation can be an influential factor or whether the time-line is fractured at the moment the dice was rolled in such a way that allows the dice can land on all sides at once into 6+ parallel futures. Also I find the idea of what I'll redub "Yukari Yakumo" theory vaguely amusing. I'm not sure if it's very easily provable though, since the answer lies within the unknown. Seems like an idea that's more easily prone to theoretical falsification though.

The Wenoth RNG might be a pseudo random calcuation based upon the precise time and date of the attack but when is somebody to know when the attack takes place which, under the conditions of fair play, is subject to an unknown and seemingly infinite number of conditions of the player's psyche. This brings us to the question as to if humans have free will or not. It certainly seems like it.
PeterPorty wrote:Just "going back" wouldn't change a thing, since the dice's outcome isn't really random, and depends in the way it is thrown and the way it "bounces", taking into account the surface it hits, the strength of the roll, the position of the hand, ETC. Therefore, unless you move the person's hand, or at least do ANYTHING while you're back in time, the outcome will be the same. This is merely because nothing is random, but not because of "fate", since if you actually did something, it could change.
Well, it could be fated, since temporal mechanics are kinda chaotic in their own right. You're assuming that we can change anything simply because we've traveled through time. Three simple little words can create all sorts of headaches in regards to causation: Continuous time loop. If we mean to say that absolutely nothing is random, we also need to consider that possibly everything has been predetermined at the moment of the big bang, acting as a sort of ultimate causation for everything.
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

Post by Moribund »

But the question is... If you go back in time and your mom keeps calling you "Calvin", will you be able to play guitar?
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

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....
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

Post by HomerJ »

"Can I play the piano any more?"
"Of course you can!"
"Well I couldn't before!"

That should be sufficient for a lock...


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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

Post by Moribund »

I hate manure.
Has no one seen Back to the Future?
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

Post by Pentarctagon »

yeah, but i didn't like it that much tbh. seemed overly corny.
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

Post by Insinuator »

Hulavuta wrote:I have a question that relates to Time travel, and chaos. Let's say you're watching someone roll a die, and it lands on a 6. Now you go back in time a few seconds and the person rolls the die again. Does it have the chance to land on a different number, or is it going to hit a six again? Are the variables going to be able to produce a different outcome, or are the variables going to repeat themselves and provide the same outcome? In other words, is the die going to have a second chance, or is its fate determined?

Keep in mind that you have no effect on the outcome, you're simply watching someone else do it. And the type of time travel does not involve any alternate dimensions, (it's simply a short rewind) so please give me a straight answer.
Straight answer: Fate determined.

Real answer: A "straight answer"? According to the science we know, your question violates physics. Thus, a yes or no answer is insufficient.

1. You can NOT go backwards in time. Even if we used a multi-verse theory, time is strictly uni-directional. But let's ignore that...

2. As others pointed out, dice rolling isn't really "random". It is affected by macroscopic conditions generally out of the control of the roller, but still quite possible to fix. But let's ignore that...

3. The only possible way you're going to get to see a difference is because of quantum theory. According to our best scientific observation and theory, at a sub-atomic level, the world is random. The probability of the roll being the exact same is so high that you could watch it a million times and see the same result. There is the tiniest possibility, however, that when you roll the dice the million-and-oneth time, it turns into a potted petunia.

@johndh: I read your response to quantum theory and I must say that that is your philisophical opinion versus the facts of countless double-slit experiments. Until you have contrary evidence, you're just speculating.
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

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Insinuator wrote: 1. You can NOT go backwards in time. Even if we used a multi-verse theory, time is strictly uni-directional. But let's ignore that...
I take it you haven't encountered closed timelike curves yet then.
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

Post by Insinuator »

No I had not. Looking at that article, however, it seems more of a mathematical toy than a working theory supported by experimental evidence.
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

Post by Alarantalara »

General Relativity is a theory with experimental evidence. Unfortunately, it allows for a variety of interesting universes depending on how the equations are set up. Generally, the models are of very simple universes, but the consequences of these simple models are assumed to remain true in the more complex real universe. Actually confirming the existence of a closed timelike curve would be difficult, given that the models have them occurring in difficult to examine places like the inside of black holes.

So they are a consequence of a working theory, but hard to confirm. If you could show they cannot exist, then you would have found a flaw in General Relativity and thus would cause great excitement in the world of physics.
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Re: Time Travel/Chaos Question

Post by SkeleRanger »

Alarantalara wrote:difficult to examine places like the inside of black holes.
If I recall correctly, a black hole has a movement cost of "impassable". That means 99 movement points, right? Does anyone know the debug command for reality? :hmm:
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