Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

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Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

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Unlike scenario reviews, reviews of the tutorial are informal. So post us your thoughts about the second part of the tutorial here, especially if you are new to Wesnoth.
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Re: Scenario Review - Tutorial Part II

Post by Unnheulu »

Nice-ish, however, you could make some of the instuctions a bit clearer on it, it took me a while to get used to things.
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Re: Scenario Review - Tutorial Part II

Post by Anym »

Right on the heels of my review of the first one, here are my thoughts about the second tutorial scenario:

It would be nice if this scenario had a "You will learn the basics of" summary at the beginning like the first one does.

That being said, this scenario does a good job at teaching the basics of traits, recalling, zone of control, alignment.

Unfortunately, it doesn't do as good a job at teaching the basics of upkeep, terrain, experience. In part, because it implicitly assumes knowledge from the latter, optional turns of the first tutorial scenario. This information should be repeated in this scenario. I've added some suggestions to this effect below. If a player has all the additional information from the first scenario, then I'd say this scenario does a good job at teaching the basics of upkeep, terrain, experience as well.

In the Scenario Objectives, "Orc Leader" probably shouldn't be capitalised as it isn't the name of a unit (which seems to be the convention).

Throughout the scenario, the are several instances when "Elves" and "Orc" are capitalised when they probably shouldn't be, i.e. when they aren't part of the name of a unit and when "human" wouldn't be capitalised if it were used in the same place.

Also, "Fighter", "Archer" and "Shaman" are often capitalised even when they probably shouldn't be, not sure what the convention on that is, though. Conversely, "wolf riders", which should be capitalised IMHO, isn't.

Galdrad's dialogue is captioned inconsistently: Some parts are captioned with "Galdrad" (those that are technically narration and that use his sprite) while others (those using his portrait) are captioned with "Elvish Captain". Also, the unit representing Galdrad also isn't called "Galdrad", but is just a generic Elvish Captain.

The very first instruction in this scenario, "Right click on the tile south of you and recall...", fails because that tile is a road and not a castle tile! The castle tile that is labeled with "RECALL..." is actually to the north-east of you. The second instruction has the same problem. It tells you to "click on the tile south-east of you", which is a forest, when the tile that is labeled for recalling is actually straight to the east. This will cause further problems later on (see below).

When Galdrad points out that "Your five units cost you 5 gold, leaving you 3 gold pieces poorer per turn", it might be a good idea to add the words "in upkeep" after the "5 gold", to make this clearer in case the player hasn't played the first tutorial scenario until at least turn 9 (which I assume most won't have).

Similarly, when Galdrad tells out how likely your troops are to be hit when standing in shallow water or in a forest, it isn't obvious IMHO that this is indicated by the percentages you see when moving around the map and that being hit only depends on the terrain, unless a player already knows that from having played the first tutorial scenario until at least turn 11 (which even fewer will have done, I presume). However, this information is vital and absolutely needs to be included in the tutorial IMHO, so I think Galdrad should be more verbose about that.

When you're supposed to "Tell a Fighter to move to the far east village", the corresponding event won't trigger unless you take care to have the fighter stop one tile short of his actual movement range (or if your order both fighters to the east, in which case of them will by itself stop one tile earlier because the other fighter block his path; this screws up the rest of the tutorial a little bit, though): Because your fighters were recalled on tiles to the north-east and east (rather than to the south and south-east; see above), telling them to move as far to the east as they can will have them in 17,5 rather than 16,4 which is too far!

I found the villages right next to the castle (on 9,2 and 13,3) easy to overlook as they blend in well with the keep graphics and initially tried to capture one of the villages that were further away, so when you're told to "Move ... to another (unowned) village", it would be nice to have the village labeled with "HERE" and/or have Galdrad chide you (and undo your move) when you don't capture a village like you're supposed to.

Similar to the information on upkeep and terrain, some the information on experience and levelling up from the later turns of the first tutorial scenario could stand to be repeated in thise scenario and the individual messages you get when one of your units advances a level should probably get some indication that the stuff they you about is new, for example "I have gained a special ability" instead of "I have a special ability" or "Now, I always have a 60% chance" instead of "I always have a 60% chance".

The message at the end of the scenario refers you to "Two Brothers", but the campaign is actually called "A Tale Of Two Brothers" in the campaign menu, it also refers to "Heir to the Throne" with different capitalisations, once with "to The" and once with "To The", both of which differ from the capitalisation in the campaign menu.

Whew, that should be it. More than I thought. :oops:

All of the above refers to version 1.4 in English [US]. Sorry if this post has become too much of nit-pick rather than an actual review. Please tell me if any of these comments should also be reported somewhere else.
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Re: Scenario Review - Tutorial Part II

Post by Jozrael »

Following my write-up of the first scenario, there are only a couple minor suggestions about this one:

1: Galdrad has been named to just an Elvish Captain in many respects: why not keep the portrait and unit named as Galdrad?

2: You can recruit the second archer into the wrong slot. I accidentally recruited where the shaman should've been. Minor, but not consistent with the other pidgeonholing.

3: Advancing units don't take traits into account when they give their little spiel. My Captain said "I do four attacks with eight damage each" when he had the strong trait, i.e. 9-4.

4: At the end, you don't give AOI as an option. Its my favorite beginner campaign <.<

Great job guys :D
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Re: Scenario Review - Tutorial Part II

Post by vicza »

Jozrael wrote: 2: You can recruit the second archer into the wrong slot. I accidentally recruited where the shaman should've been. Minor, but not consistent with the other pidgeonholing.
BTW, in 1.5.0 this scenario is broken. You can only recall 1 Fighter, and then, whoever you recruit, Galdrad kills him and says: I told you recall this (already recalled) fighter.
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Re: Scenario Review - Tutorial Part II

Post by Setsuna F. Seiei »

I'd say that the tutorial was pretty good, but i suggest making it longer and introducing all the races, and other stuff such as items, other objectives, different attack specials, and so on.
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Re: Scenario Review - Tutorial Part II

Post by Rapturous »

This was a fun mission. I expected something similar to the first tutorial--a watered down fake fight. However, this turned out to be a reasonable skirmish to start with. The advanced aspects of the game taught here were pretty clearly defined, except zone of control. I didn't quite grasp zone of control until the third campaign. It's not crucial, but it could bear to be better explained here. Other than that, thoroughly enjoyed this mild skirmish, and it made me thirsty for more.
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Re: Scenario Review - Tutorial Part II

Post by starfury »

When moving to take the east village, the fighter recalled to 12,3 is capable of moving past the range specified for the next instruction event (line 959 in the 1.5.7 WML), and will end up in 17,5 if multi-turn move is used.

Edit to add: Perhaps it would be better for the ZoC explanation to specifically say within one hex of an enemy unit, since "close to" can be ambiguous for a beginner.
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Re: Scenario Review - Tutorial Part II

Post by AI »

Fixed the bug in r32275, the clarification will have to wait for 1.7 though, as we're in stringfreeze.
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Re: Scenario Review - Tutorial Part II

Post by Ilanin »

It's unfortunately possible to completely screw yourself over in turn 3 with no real knowledge you've done this until turn 4, and the game doesn't even recognise it then. You're told to "advance units and capture villages" at the end of turn three, which, taken literally, will probably lead to a deployment like this:
The tutorial now wants you to move an Elvish Fighter to the forest SW of the village which is, at this point, impossible. In fact the only unit that can necessarily reach there is the Shaman, which is a really bad idea (and you've been told to put that elsewhere anyway).

This isn't game-breaking inasmuch as the tutorial will let you progress if you move any unit there, not just the rather slow Elvish Fighters, but new players (certainly the new player I was talking about the tutorial with) are not going to like a tutorial they can't actually obey all the instructions in.
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Re: Scenario Review - Tutorial Part II

Post by netzakh »

Mythological wrote:Unlike the other scenario reviews, the review of the tutorial is informal. So post us your thoughts about the first part of the tutorial here, especially if you are new to wesnoth.
I will follow the more standard
(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(1) 1.6.2
(2) 4 due to the battle for the island for a first-time player
(3) clear
(4) clear
(5) as to the objectives themselves, none; after the battle for the island I even thought of trying to advance some E-Shaman by providing easy kills, but preferred to quickly kill the enemy leader
(6) 5
(7) as was noted by previous posters, the villages right next to the castle are not well distinguishable; maybe, adding labels "Village" during the first turn somewhere around

Code: Select all

                        {GENDER ({PRINT (_"Move Konrad to capture a village")})
                                ({PRINT (_"Move Li'sar to capture a village")})}
would help.

In addition, having been patient in the first scenario and arranging all four Quintains to the same E-Fighter proved extremely useful, as I had got an E-Captain almost immediately when on the island.

Some post-thoughts on 1.6.4 configuration file for this scenario:
  • The message wherein recalling is introduced starts with "During your tutorial...", but this is also tutorial; "In the previous scenario..." could be less confusing.
  • When the attention is drawn to the O-Grunt on the island at turn 2, the message starts with "Orcs have no ranged attack...", which is false both in general in BfW and in this scenario, where O-Archers also occur; "Orcish Grunts have no ranged attack..." would be better.
  • The post_advance events describing the units resulting from advancements can be accompanied by (or even replaced with) advance events describing possible advancement choices. For example, before the player is given two options for an E-Fighter, there can be a message describing the stronger and less strong sides of E-Captains and E-Heroes.
  • Advancement of E-Shamans, albeit rare in practice, is not handled :!:.
  • Dextrous trait might occur in further recruits, and it would be useful to draw attention to this trait when it appears for the first time.
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by Skaithe »

I actually found this a bit difficult especially if geared toward a new player (which is obviously is), This is definitely kind of throwing them to the wolves. I found myself trying harder than I thought I would be battling for that island. Although, it does give a good lesson in strategy and terrain. So it does serve its purpose well.
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by boru »

When I played this tutorial years ago, I thought it was fine and I really couldn't imagine anyone having much trouble with it. However, I know that several of my friends who have no experience in strategy games have been killed in the tutorial, and I honestly still couldn't see why, until today. I found a series of videos on YouTube of some guy really struggling to get through it. He makes a lot of classic newbie errors like attacking from water (until the tutorial instructs him about terrain) but he also makes a lot of mistakes which illustrate how the tutorial could be made better.

Every now and then someone announces the tutorial is going to be revised, so if anyone's working on that, they ought to watch these videos a few times and really analyze what's going on. Just from a casual observation, I saw a lot of flaws with the tutorial, instructions that were not clear, instructions that just didn't work and a lot of little things experienced players simply take for granted.

The first thing that occurred to me: the time limit on the first tutorial doesn't serve any value. If the player wishes to finish off all the quintains before moving on to the next tutorial, what's the harm in that? It's the difference between ending with the thought, "Yeah, I can do this," versus, "Wow I screwed up and it's only gonna get tougher from here."

The second tutorial is pretty difficult (if you're inexperienced in TBS games), but our friend makes it even more difficult on himself by:
(1) mistaking the villages connected to the keep for some kind of architectural embellishment, not villages, therefore doesn't take them;
(2) repeatedly attempting to move his Elvish Captain advisor;
(3) using experienced Fighters to grab villages (as instructed) instead of attacking with them;
(4) setting attack commands before moving units, ensuring bad moves cannot be undone by pressing U;
(5) repeatedly ending turns before making sure he's moved everyone.

There are literally dozens of other errors that ought to be looked at by anyone who's planning to revise the Tutorial.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Ashkihyena# ... vcWX_NsN0w
http://www.youtube.com/user/Ashkihyena# ... 5bXUUMoEQU
http://www.youtube.com/user/Ashkihyena# ... wgpHUC9Jy0
http://www.youtube.com/user/Ashkihyena# ... 3-1MUQznac
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by shadowblack »

I played the tutorial just to see the way slowed units look, but after finishing it I have a couple of questions:
- can anyone explain to me what was the orc leader trying to do, and would it not be better for him to stay in his keep?
- anyone else think it would be a good idea to limit the number of wolf riders that get recruited? Recruiting nothing but wolf riders on turn 1 seems a bit much, and can become a serious problem if the player is slow getting to the island in the middle

Also, there was a comment about orcs getting through the river and into the forest at a time when none of the orcs were in the river (so the comment seemed out of place).
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by Jabie »

I posted this elsewhere, as the forums seem to be a little unstructured, but it's probably worth repeating here:

The tutorial offers a number of starting campaign suggestions, but one really cool option would be "...or maybe you want to hear the rest of Konrad's tale?"

If the player chooses this option, they get to start Heir to the Throne, but with the minor benefit that Konrad and Lisar gets to keep any XP they have acquired. I very much doubt Konrad starting with a few XP is going to be game-breaking, but it make a nice little tie-in.

It's also worth looking at the comments I have made for the HttT, which covers tips which should be introduced / reinforeced for the Easy level of that campaign. As HttT is the showcase campaign, and, when I checked on the forums, was one of the recommended starter campaigns, it makes sense to add a few hints (on Easy level only, no point frustrating experienced players) to this campaign.
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