An Orcish Incursion: some questions and ideas

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Aldarisvet
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An Orcish Incursion: some questions and ideas

Post by Aldarisvet » December 4th, 2019, 10:39 am

I want to discuss some issues about An Orcish Incrusion here.
The campaign represents "the first direct elvish clash with orcs" so this probably important to save this moment of Wesnoth history and not to demainline it but rather rework it.

The campaign has almost no storyline, the only plot line in it is about elves chasing some orcish vanguard. Since playing only against orcs through the whole campaign would be extremely boring, you can fight also against trolls and undead as I remember. Also you can meet a Silver Mage, Linaera the Quick there but after you just acquire her in one scenario where she besieged by orcs in her tower and nothing happened with storyline concerning her later which is quite primitive.

At first, my questions about obvious historical faults of this campaign
According to Timeline of Wesnoth - https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Timeline_of_Wesnoth - AOI happens at 8YW. Only 9 years passed after a first human ever put his leg on the Great continent (orcs just began their second wave of invasion of the continent from the Green Isle).

How it is ever possible that only 9 years after that an elvish hero meets a lich and a silver mage during his hunt over orcs???
What that lich was doing in that swamp? Stupidly sitting and waiting while someone would kill him? Of course he cannot be a 'new generation' lich, he can only be a remnant of lich-lord Jevyan army, but still it is quite a coincidence to meet such a lich. Really a lich patiently awaits you in every swamp you cross??? Anycase there are no attempts made to explain that or to align this with The Rise of Wesnoth campaign.

And about Linaera - how she and her apprentices ever supposed to appear so far from human settlers with which obviously she evacuated from the Green Isle? Not only she abandoned them and Haldric, but she was able to build a whole tower in that backwards that orcs was unable to seize! I am not saying that this is totally impossible to happen (or explained), however.

Moreover, these questions probably can lead to some interesting answers that could connect TRoW and AOI.

Also I think that this campaign could be split into 2 parts. In one you play on the side of elves, on the second you can play on the side of invading orcs, scenarios of these parts even can go alongside. For now the campaign has 7 scenarios, form which 5 you fight against orcs, one against undead and one against trolls. At least 2 scenarios can be removed from the side of elves instead adding length to the side of orcs. The scenario against trolls... I don't know why it is here at all. Just elves met trolls in their road, oh, great. Probably you should show in the campaign how orcs tricked trolls to attack elves.

So, If you can use your fantasy, you can improve that campaign greatly.
Last edited by Aldarisvet on December 11th, 2019, 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An Orcish Incrusion: some questions and ideas

Post by octalot » December 4th, 2019, 11:28 am

According to TRoW, the merfolk have already been to the Great Continent several times between 12 BW and 7 BW accompanying the First Crown Prince of Southbay, and that Southbay prince met some elves. It would seem odd if these were the only encounters between merfolk and elves - is there anything in the lore about elf-merfolk diplomatic relations circa AOI?

In TRoW, the merfolk are trading with Southbay because they don't have underwater blacksmiths. It would seem odd if the merfolk haven't been trading with the Great Continents' dwarves too.

S5-S7 of AOI take place near Jotha, the merfolk town that's the first and last scenarios of Dead Water in 626-627 YW. As it's a good geographic location for the merfolk, it seems likely to me that Jotha would already exist before AOI, and that the mages of S5 would be at least on trading terms with Jotha - it also seems likely that the mages got there by ship, possibly even on one of the First Crown Prince of Southbay's voyages. The silver mages might make be working as cargo-carriers between Jotha and dwarves in the Heart Mountains, and S5 would give a reason for them to share information with the elves.

Rualsha's camp could be* at the mouth of the River Bork, with orcs arriving by ship from Tirigaz and by river-boat from the eastern orcish towns, and Rualsha needing to convince the other chiefs of his strength. If the other chiefs see the aftermath of S5, and the merfolk delay the ship from Tirigaz then the orcish horde falls apart while S6 is happening, and S7 is the cleanup afterwards.

* The current bigmap.cfg puts Rualsha's camp further east, an inaccessible location that doesn't seem to have any logic, and which means S6's swamp is directly between S5 and S7.

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Re: An Orcish Incrusion: some questions and ideas

Post by Aldarisvet » December 4th, 2019, 11:49 am

Heh, yes, merfolk, I just was thinking about them. Good they are near.
I was thinking that the first scenario of this campaign should be on the orcish side with orcs attacking woses and someone else. That someone else could be merfolk. So orcs (possibly with nagas help) killed woses and merfolk (living in the nearby forest river), burned the forest and thus drew attention of elves.
So next 2-3 scenarios could be on elvish side as in AOI almost without changes. Then the orcish line continues. It could be a scenario when orcs trying to reach to trolls to convince them to attack elves. Some dungeons scenario were orcs fights, I dunno, why not even dwarves. So they defeat the dwarves and trick trolls to attack elves. So there goes a scenario on the elvish side with trolls.
Than we get back to the orcish side. Linaera's tower and probably some settlers around her (outlaw fighters?) is a problem for retreating orcs so there could be a scenario when orcs attacks the settlement. They won but mages escape in the tower. Then it is again turn of the elves and so on...
The last scenario should be about some minor orc chieftain (the hero of the whole orcish storyline) was able to escape elves while fighting through them.

We have only one campaign for orcs for now, and here people would take an opportunity to play for orcs on the beginning campaign. Also it is always good to show things from the other side. Not that orcs 'are not bad guys' but just to show their motives. At least some orcs could be smart.
Last edited by Aldarisvet on December 4th, 2019, 1:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: An Orcish Incrusion: some questions and ideas

Post by Elvish_Hunter » December 4th, 2019, 12:05 pm

Aldarisvet wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 10:39 am
And about Linaera - how she and her apprentices ever supposed to appear so far from human settlers with which obviously she evacuated from the Green Isle? Not only she abandoned them and Haldric, but she was able to build a whole tower in that backwards that orcs was unable to seize! I am not saying that this is totally impossible to happen (or explained), however.
I think I might have another idea about that.
Instead of her having apprentices, how about making her a lone (as in: an individual who wants to isolate herself) mage? Not having apprentices, she would then be allowed to recruit elementals (maybe fire ghosts?), and since a skilled mage can summon a virtually infinite amount of them, not only she was able to fend off the orcs, but she was able to conquer the tower from the orcs! That would also explain her desire to avoid other humans, especially mages: being one of the first elemental users ever, she was misunderstood by the other mages.
Why anyone had built a tower in such an abandoned place, that's another question.
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Re: An Orcish Incrusion: some questions and ideas

Post by Aldarisvet » December 4th, 2019, 12:56 pm

Actually that tower could be build by elves or dwarves in some ancient times so that is the explanation.
And about the lich, that of course it shoudn't be that they accidentally met that lich in the swamp. Possibly Linaera had some issues with that lich and asked elves to help her against the lich first before she helps them with the orcs. So it should be explained that lich came from Western continent and something interesting must be invented with this. Obviously Linaera herself is from the Green Island and could me meddled with that killed Southbay prince story somehow, though for now I have no idea how.

EDIT: I guess that lich could be a former mage that helped to kill Southbay prince, later he also betrayed his treacherous brother, joined Jevian's forces and became a lich himself but also left Jevian too and run away when he understood that Jevian is losing against Haldric.
Probably initially that mage could be an adviser of Southbay's junior prince and he encouraged him to kill his brother. So imagine - was a nameless lich and I deducted him to be a main bad person to be responsible of all happened in the Green Isle ;)
And Linaera even could be an adviser of an elder brother-prince so she had quite personal reasons to kill that lich.
Last edited by Aldarisvet on December 4th, 2019, 2:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: An Orcish Incrusion: some questions and ideas

Post by octalot » December 4th, 2019, 1:32 pm

If the player keeps switching sides, how does the progress of one side affect the other side? Will doing well in the orc scenarios make the elf scenarios harder?

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Re: An Orcish Incrusion: some questions and ideas

Post by Aldarisvet » December 4th, 2019, 1:49 pm

octalot wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 1:32 pm
If the player keeps switching sides, how does the progress of one side affect the other side? Will doing well in the orc scenarios make the elf scenarios harder?
Nope. There is no need in it. In fact it would be 2 different campaigns just interwoven by scenarios order and united by the same storyline. Orcish and elvish heroes would have two different recall lists. Gamewise the main hero of elves would never meet the main hero of orcs. But storywise the main hero of orcs would be a underling of the big orcish boss that is killed in the last scenario of elvish line (Rualsha is his name).
This interlacing or stories would greatly revive the campaign I think. Adding only 4 scenarios for orcs is needed (against woses, dwarves, besieging Linaera and the last one).

And about why Linaera and her followers left Haldric... possibly she felt the bad Influence of Ruby of Fire on him and decided to left somehow closer to Merfolk.
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Re: An Orcish Incrusion: some questions and ideas

Post by gnombat » December 4th, 2019, 4:37 pm

Aldarisvet wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 10:39 am
The campaign represents "the first direct elvish clash with orcs" so this probably important to save this moment of Wesnoth history and not to demainline it but rather rework it.
Interestingly, the original version of the campaign didn't represent the first clash with orcs at all - it was simply a battle with orcs taking place at an unspecified time in history in Lintanir forest. The part about it being the first encounter with orcs was added later in an attempt to make the storyline more interesting. (Judging by the current popularity of the campaign, it appears this was not very successful.)

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Re: An Orcish Incrusion: some questions and ideas

Post by EarthCake » Yesterday, 5:21 pm

In timeline it says nothing about merfolk until year 626. Maybe instead of controlling orcs the player could control merfolk, and the merfolk and the elves both attack Rualsha in the last scenario, thus making an alliance.
This could interlude with events of LoW, since merfolk should come to aid the elves, but this could be solved by just saying that merfolk were fighting naga.

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Re: An Orcish Incrusion: some questions and ideas

Post by Aldarisvet » Today, 9:55 am

EarthCake wrote:
Yesterday, 5:21 pm
In timeline it says nothing about merfolk until year 626. Maybe instead of controlling orcs the player could control merfolk, and the merfolk and the elves both attack Rualsha in the last scenario, thus making an alliance.
This could interlude with events of LoW, since merfolk should come to aid the elves, but this could be solved by just saying that merfolk were fighting naga.
As I understood, AOI is already demainlined for 1.16.
It could be returned later, why not, after rework.
I think that AOI could be the next campaign just after the Rise of Wesnoth (alongside with The Sceptre of Fire it would be a set of campaigns about very early Wesnoth, oh also there is a new drake campaign from that time). But given TRoW is of high difficulty, AOI must be greatly reworked to be an expert campaign.

Concerning orcs, I just brought an idea that playing for two rival parties simultaneously during one campaign could be good to explain storyline loopholes of which AOI is now entirely consists. The campaign plotline must not be about simply hunting orcish vanguard because this is not a story, I already wrote a lot about it in this thread. Also playing alternately for different sides of one conflict in the single campaign looks like an original and interesting idea for me that I do not remember anywhere to be implemented.
Well, when you reading a book, you often with some heroes, but then action brings you to other place and other heroes and so on and in some moment the storyline returns to the first heroes. This is like a wheel, like a windmill to be correct, but in our case the windmill will have only two blades (elvish and orcish points of view).
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Re: An Orcish Incrusion: some questions and ideas

Post by octalot » Today, 12:18 pm

BTW, there's a typo in the thread title. This thread should show up when searching the forums for An Orcish Incursion.

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Re: An Orcish Incrusion: some questions and ideas

Post by Aldarisvet » Today, 12:21 pm

octalot wrote:
Today, 12:18 pm
BTW, there's a typo in the thread title. This thread should show up when searching the forums for An Orcish Incursion.
Fixed :D
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