Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

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Celtic_Minstrel
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Do we need to add another branch…?
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Hejnewar
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

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Celtic_Minstrel wrote: March 1st, 2020, 8:42 pm Do we need to add another branch…?
No, but I always felt like Dunefolk lack unique special ability that would set them apart from other factions, this is one thing that rework didn't manage to fix in my opinion. This is the reason why I support this idea and as long as doofus wants to work on this I will offer my support in things that I can do.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by doofus-01 »

Hejnewar wrote: March 1st, 2020, 5:27 pm Harrier could have increased vision range because she is using her hawk in order to scout but other possible line could use her hawk in order to help her fight or hawk could belong only to this new line granting both benefits. Whichever unit gets it, will be first unit in default+ to have different movement and vision ranges.
This makes sense, and in the PR I've got for this, the specialty of the Falconer (not Harrier) is boosted "vision" and giving backstab to the hostile unit behind the enemy facing the Falconer (though it currently doesn't quite do that - will be fixed).
Hejnewar wrote: March 1st, 2020, 5:27 pm Stunted branch does work for campaigns but doesn't for MP.
This part doesn't make sense to me, unless you are saying undead & loyalists are broken. But we can work this out, so long as it's before I waste time on pointless animations, it's all good. For now, there is a lvl 2 Falconer and a lvl 3 Sky Hunter.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

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doofus-01 wrote: March 8th, 2020, 4:13 am This makes sense, and in the PR I've got for this, the specialty of the Falconer (not Harrier) is boosted "vision" and giving backstab to the hostile unit behind the enemy facing the Falconer (though it currently doesn't quite do that - will be fixed).
Soo... She will have skirmisher, distract and this new ability? I would say that distract is worth at least 15g, it makes every incomplete wall of units (unit-free hex-unit-free hex-unit for example) useless. You will always be able to attack with 5 or 6 units (because falconer has skirmisher). That is very powerful and opponent in certain situations just can't respond to this at all. This is the reason why I don't see it on L2.

This backstab is very overpowered, 100% increased damage on anything is op (1 strong dune soldier can deal 30x2 with backstab during day and you can use this with many unit during one turn), getting this ability on unit with skirmisher is game winning.
doofus-01 wrote: March 8th, 2020, 4:13 am This part doesn't make sense to me, unless you are saying undead & loyalists are broken. But we can work this out, so long as it's before I waste time on pointless animations, it's all good. For now, there is a lvl 2 Falconer and a lvl 3 Sky Hunter.
Well, they are, L2,5 are not really used much in campaigns by me because their top power is nowhere near L3. Some of them are even weaker than usual L2 (Troll Rocklobber, Javelineer) but they are used in MP to deal with certain factions / situations, if L2,5 really were stronger by good bit then mp players would just use them instead.

About sprites: I really like them. L3 falcon is gorgeus. L2 falcon is a bit too shiny in my opinion and its beak is a bit too straight but I dont know if it's possible to even make it better on such small scale.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

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First, I got to say this might be a moot point as I can't figure out how to get the animation filters to work correctly
major stumbling blocks:
Without the animations to give the player an indication of active/inactive, this backstab/distraction thing would be essentially broken.
Hejnewar wrote: March 9th, 2020, 8:37 am Soo... She will have skirmisher, distract and this new ability?
Is distract already an ability? Or are you saying the vision thing should be an ability?
Hejnewar wrote: March 9th, 2020, 8:37 am it makes every incomplete wall of units (unit-free hex-unit-free hex-unit for example) useless. You will always be able to attack with 5 or 6 units (because falconer has skirmisher). That is very powerful and opponent in certain situations just can't respond to this at all.
I don't follow this argument. A single falconer would give backstab-style boost to one other unit per adjacent enemy. And it doesn't need to be backstab specs exactly - in fact it currently just lowers [resistance]. But it has the 180 degrees, man-in-the-middle placement condition.
Hejnewar wrote: March 9th, 2020, 8:37 am This backstab is very overpowered, 100% increased damage on anything is op (1 strong dune soldier can deal 30x2 with backstab during day and you can use this with many unit during one turn), getting this ability on unit with skirmisher is game winning.
That's not what's in the PR.
Hejnewar wrote: March 9th, 2020, 8:37 am Well, they are, L2,5 are not really used much in campaigns by me because their top power is nowhere near L3. Some of them are even weaker than usual L2 (Troll Rocklobber, Javelineer) but they are used in MP to deal with certain factions / situations, if L2,5 really were stronger by good bit then mp players would just use them instead.
This isn't making any sense to me, but may be because of double-damage misunderstanding.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

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doofus-01 wrote: March 15th, 2020, 12:01 am First, I got to say this might be a moot point as I can't figure out how to get the animation filters to work correctly
major stumbling blocks:
Without the animations to give the player an indication of active/inactive, this backstab/distraction thing would be essentially broken.

Is distract already an ability? Or are you saying the vision thing should be an ability?
This is one big misunderstanding. Distract is already an ability in wesnoth and I was refering to it all this time.
Unit with distract.
This explains why I couldn't find this other "reversed backstab" like ability. I was thinking that you just ported distract from TRoW.

Vision is present as an attribute in unit description and in in-game tooltip, but its not present in recruitment tooltip not in advancement tooltip. I guess it doesn't have to be an ability many important things aren't shown in tooltips anyway and it's not that important.

About your ability. It's interesting idea (strength might need some changes but I will look at it later). I like it. Why resistances tho? Isn't dodge better flavour wise? (It can be harder to find right spot with dodge 10% sounds like not enough but 20% is too much.)
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by doofus-01 »

Hejnewar wrote: March 15th, 2020, 9:26 pm This is one big misunderstanding. Distract is already an ability in wesnoth and I was refering to it all this time.
Unit with distract.
Ah, OK. I'd looked at core, but not the campaigns-specific units.
Hejnewar wrote: March 15th, 2020, 9:26 pm About your ability. It's interesting idea (strength might need some changes but I will look at it later). I like it. Why resistances tho? Isn't dodge better flavour wise? (It can be harder to find right spot with dodge 10% sounds like not enough but 20% is too much.)
Yeah, defense might be better, but I'm not sure it's supported at least in the way I was looking at it, so I went with resistance. I got stuck on the animations, if I can get that ironed out, I'll look at the stats/mechanics again. Thanks.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Why do you need to know where the unit has been?

If nothing else, I suppose this could be done somehow with unit variables, not sure if that would be efficient though.

It's correct that defense-modifying abilities aren't supported. There was apparently a reason for it, like it was really, really slow or something.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by doofus-01 »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote: March 18th, 2020, 1:47 pm Why do you need to know where the unit has been?
To know whether to trigger a "launch/recall-the-falcon" animation or not. It actually gets worse, as you'd also need to trigger that if the other units move as well.

There's probably some lua way to do it, but I'm too rusty for that. Depending on what happens with COVID-19, I might have time to figure it out, for better or worse.
EDIT: I think I see how to do it, in an ugly way but with Lua, so it won't fill up save-files with crap. I've also changed the "Distraction" ability to "Diversion", not as good a name, but it's still available. The new effect is 15% reduction in enemy CTH - I pulled that 15% out of my ... hat, so it probably needs revision.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by ghype »

The "missing" falcon can and should be represented in a campaign. One day the Dunefolk surely will get a Campaign and then it won't matter wether the falcone/hawk is featured in mp or not.
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