Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

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Whiskeyjack
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Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.2(Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Thanks again for the replies and the link re: morality and sorry that I took so long coming back to you.

I'll continue with your previous post, name, before I go to the newest. Some of this was written before the last update but I don't want to edit it all again (or I will never get this posted), so just ignore things that are already concluded.

Scenario 1: The Hunt:
Scenario 3: The Contention:
Scenario 4: Islands:
Scenario 5: The Three Sisters:
Scenario 7: Wesmere:
Scenario 12: Epilogue:
Language:
Dragons:
Timeline::
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.

name
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Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.2(Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name »

Whiskeyjack wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 8:18 pm
Some of this was written before the last update but I don't want to edit it all again (or I will never get this posted), so just ignore things that are already concluded.
Alrighty.

Scenario 3: The Contention:
Scenario 4: Islands:
Scenario 7: Wesmere:
Scenario 12: Epilogue:
Dragons:
Timeline::

Whiskeyjack
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Location: Germany

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by Whiskeyjack »

name wrote:
June 20th, 2020, 3:20 am
She continues to blame the one subordinate in particular she already started blaming earlier. I find that in real life, people past a certain threshold of egotism, have a tendency to redirect all of their own failures of responsibility to someone(s) else. Since Vonel is her subordinate, he just has to take it to some extent, which makes this dynamic just the more convenient for Salennea. At the same time, I would say Vonel is not showing much strength of character and thereby plays his own smaller part in the pandemonium.
And yet again, I come to the problem I lamented before. Much of this makes sense with your extensive background information and explanations. But it is badly translated to what is actually seen in the campaign. Salennea doesn't come off as a deeply flawed, weak-minded character, but as a walking stereotype of the incompetent (royal) leader. You play this for laughs by doubling down with things like the directly preceding release of the messenger birds (oh, what a coincidence...), but in that act destroy any attempt at making this character believable. From which then arise all my criticisms. This is a problem because that character undermines the story you tell. If I don't believe your princess character, I don't believe the Wesmere events that are directly caused by her. NR works better here, because the campaign is more coherent in tone, more light-hearted in its storytelling, while you - in most cases - try to tell a serious (even dark) story, try to establish more complex characters (on the drakes side).
name wrote:
June 20th, 2020, 3:20 am
Yet the contrast between the more zany and the more deep characters is part of the intended effect. As is an element of surprise; we certainly expect an elvish princess or a dwarfish clansman to be noble and wise.
Do we, though? Elves are presented as flawed and multifaceted at many points in Wesnoth and the only other princess we ever meet is a literal damsel in distresss...
And a similar thing goes for the dwarves, TRoW and SoF give plenty of examples there...
name wrote:
June 20th, 2020, 3:20 am
What is sorry about it though?
Ok, let me present my full position again here, though I think I implicitly touched this many times. We already have actual royalty for the humans and dwarves, which work perfectly well if you want to tell stories about princesses in Wesnoth (though for the dwarves you'd have to solve the up-to-now undecided problem of reproduction and gender fist :lol: ). We also have orcs - and now your new drakes - usually being led by single "strongest fighter" type leaders. Undead, almost by definition, are creations of a single mastermind and puppeteer. The Wesnoth elves are different in that regard as they are - again, on multiple occasions - presented as council-led and more free-flowing in their style of leadership, and while there seems to be some nobility, it certainly isn't mandatory for a leadership position. The elves are considerably more creative and less Tolkien-clonish* in that regard than most other race settings in Wesnoth up till now had to offer and present a platform to tell different kinds of stories. That is already reason enough in my eyes to stay clear of any kind of elvish royalty.
To add to that, any royalty even existing doesn't fit with anything we see of the elves anywhere in mainline, except for that episode in NR (which is, again, a campaign with a light-hearted, heavily stereotyped (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, when done well, mind you) story that in quite a lot of aspects should be taken with more caution for making it the "standard" of mainline - e.g., only mention of interracial children (in an optional ending no less), the immortal mages, the reclusive liches leading animals instead of undead, asf. Considering mainline is inconsistent in quite a few places and there are current efforts in the works to reduce said inconsistencies - treating stuff like the NR princess very carefully (or even better, ignoring its existence for the time being) sounds like a more reasonable approach to support said efforts.
And all of that was written when talking about the current status quo. As I pointed out, Elvish lore is currently undergoing active changes and Elvish princesses fit even worse there, especially for Wesmere. (At this point I might add that the vision of Wesmere you detailed in one of your posts also doesn't work well, the new race description - picked up on in many places across the new unit descriptions - goes in a very different direction!)



* I'm a big fan of Tolkien and his works, so don't take this as general criticism. But I think creating middle-earth clones in the twenty-first century is boring and uninspired - at least in that regard WoV is miles ahead of a lot of things mainline has to offer. (Unnecessary) Royalty for all the races is certainly a very medieval / Tolkien thing to do though...
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.

name
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Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name »

Whiskeyjack wrote:
June 20th, 2020, 10:08 am
NR works better here, because the campaign is more coherent in tone, more light-hearted in its storytelling, while you - in most cases - try to tell a serious (even dark) story, try to establish more complex characters (on the drakes side).
This might be where we have misunderstood each other. It is fine having very consistent levity as with NR or very consistent seriousness as with DiD. But there is also value in mixing the two in various ways and to various extents. As such, the intent with WoV is to mix dark and light heartedness.

Still, I understand that the execution was not to your liking and it is noted.
Whiskeyjack wrote:
June 20th, 2020, 10:08 am
We already have actual royalty for the humans and dwarves,
Not royalty, Salennea is nobility. The titles Prince and Princess can refer to either royalty or nobility.
Whiskeyjack wrote:
June 20th, 2020, 10:08 am
We also have orcs - and now your new drakes - usually being led by single "strongest fighter" type leaders. Undead, almost by definition, are creations of a single mastermind and puppeteer.
Lawful drakish culture is opposite to that of chaotic orcish culture.

With orcs, leaders are chosen through the killing of all rivals. They remain in power until killed in turn.

With drakes, it is The Ways' that are their supreme ruler. Beneath that are the Dominants, which are chosen by, altogether-- their skill for The Hunt, their willingness to perform an Act of Duty for the Flight of their allegiance, the esteem of their caste mates and the demonstration of a superior mind for strategy. If a Dominant betrays The Ways', it is the duty of his peers to destroy him.
Whiskeyjack wrote:
June 20th, 2020, 10:08 am
The Wesnoth elves are different in that regard as they are - again, on multiple occasions - presented as council-led and more free-flowing in their style of leadership, and while there seems to be some nobility, it certainly isn't mandatory for a leadership position.
The Ka'lian are a council of nobles as of 3 years before WoV. If a noble council is not unique enough for some, the meaningful point in history to change this is after Landar slaughters the original Ka'lian. Then Kalenz, not interested in taking power for himself, nor restoring a failing system, establishes your republican version.

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Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Spoiler'ed the entire post since pretty everything I'm responding to is also in spoiler tags.
Spoiler:
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
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name
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Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 6:10 am
Spoiler'ed the entire post since pretty everything I'm responding to is also in spoiler tags.
I will do the same then:
Spoiler:

Whiskeyjack
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Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Beating a dead horse named Princess:
Edit: I primarily use spoiler tags to structure my posts and keep them at a digestible length, not to prevent spoiling. I do think at this point they have become somewhat dispensable.
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.

name
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Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name »

Whiskeyjack wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 10:13 pm
This is a highly inappropriate misapprehension of my criticisms, conflating them with the whole debacle about the female drakes, which also wasn't about "checkbox diversity", mistakes in the handling of said removal and possibly underlying "political" arguments notwithstanding :P
Compartmentalize and gloss over what just happened all you like. The fact remains we just put in several months of work rebuilding this campaign nearly from the ground up and addressing a wall of silly criticisms it took nemaara all of an hour to write.
Whiskeyjack wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 10:13 pm
Sometimes, you are quite fixated on miscellaneous stuff in the weirdest of places :)
A sin of which you are surely innocent.
Whiskeyjack wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 10:13 pm
We have main characters advancing through the (unit) "ranks" from sergeant to grand marshal with exactly one opportunity for promotion ever arriving, we have dwarves rising from grunt to "lord" (of what?) mid-expedition (expeditions usually consisting of a bunch of dwarven lords towards the end no less), we have an actual princess titled Wesfolk Outcast, but addressing an important sorceress in a leadership position with the very broad and ambiguous term "lady" is too much, because there exists a flavor unit that uses this broad and ambiguous term in its unit name? :)
This, as well, cuts both ways.

Whiskeyjack wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 10:13 pm
If you so much want to bring the actual unit into this though, allow me to cite the unit description for the Elvish Enchantress, as chosen unit to more adequately represent Saleanna:
And here is the canon unit description:
Elvish Enchantress wrote: The magic of the elves is wholly unlike that of humanity, so much so that humans are almost universally incapable of understanding it, let alone using it. Likewise, those who are masters of it are equally enigmatic; though it can be said that they are revered by their people, very little can be said about their actual function or purpose within that society.
Which supports the (overly, in this particular case) respected yet somewhat undefined role Princess Salennea plays in Wesmerish society.

Whiskeyjack wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 10:13 pm
You want the princess in as princess and that's that.**
It better fits the tonal focus of the scenario. "Lady" sounds too formal, respectable and mature. You are very focused on minute details few players will notice or care about, while losing sight of other aspects you do not enjoy but others will.
Whiskeyjack wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 10:13 pm
** Do "note", that while I, as just another forum pleb, made my (rightfully ignore-able) dislike of this choice quite obvious, my argument was ever that this is working against what other people more directly involved with the elves in current mainline development were/are quite recently doing. If you cannot see why this might be a problem, we do have a problem indeed.
I believe I am trying to take a mediating role here (despite the provocative format of this post), but I do see trouble on the horizon when bad blood is already in the water and multiple projects not cooperating are bound for collision over a shared fiction.
Is this mysterious group of "other people" (aka nemaara) willing to compromise by inserting our rich work on drake lore into later mainline campaigns? Will our authority over drake canon (we being directly involved with drake mainline development) be recognized just as we are being asked to respect this new elvish "canon"?

As a mediator, feel free to pass these questions along to the other side.

Whiskeyjack
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Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by Whiskeyjack »

name wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 3:58 am
Compartmentalize and gloss over what just happened all you like. The fact remains we just put in several months of work rebuilding this campaign nearly from the ground up and addressing a wall of silly criticisms it took nemaara all of an hour to write.
And it still has nothing do to with my criticisms. While I understand the anger, it is unfair to direct it at me :P
name wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 3:58 am
A sin of which you are surely innocent.
Fair enough :lol:
name wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 3:58 am
This, as well, cuts both ways.
Now this one I don't understand at all - what do you mean?
name wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 3:58 am
And here is the canon unit description:
You might have re-developed the campaign on 1.14, but am I mistaken in the assumption that any re-addition to mainline will occur on 1.15.X? Either way, the campaign would appear alongside the newer version of the description in 1.16 at some point. Whatever this "canon" you speak of is, it won't be WoV's canon in that case...
name wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 3:58 am
Is this mysterious group of "other people" (aka nemaara) willing to compromise by inserting our rich work on drake lore into later mainline campaigns? Will our authority over drake canon (we being directly involved with drake mainline development) be recognized just as we are being asked to respect this new elvish "canon"?

As a mediator, feel free to pass these questions along to the other side.
I am not the spokesperson for nemaara, just to make this clear. All of what I write here are my own opinions and arguments which are not coordinated with them. The point I'm coming from is exclusively this: I liked the goal of cleaning up mainline, removing inconsistencies, improving story-telling. nemaara and doofus-01 (mostly gameplay) have done considerable work on multiple campaigns by now (you might want to play new DiD, Liberty, and SoF at some point, though the latter only received gameplay updates AFAIK). Earthcake and LordLewis are also currently reworking AtoTB for MP. I might even point out that nemaara sent ItsTom and RangerLOL your (Sigurds) way, when they wanted to work on drake lore (I have no idea what came of that though).
The positions between which I am trying to mediate are not you vs. nemaara, but rather between the ongoing attempts to improve mainline lore and the introduction of a new entity further splintering it (now, I think most of the points concerning 1.14 campaign canon have been addressed, but as I keep pointing out, the game has not stayed there and is evolving). It will not be good for the game if two conflicting projects at odds with each other actively change/expand mainline at the same time. This is why I have asked what your intentions for the greater campaign canon are, and what should/needs to be changed in other places. This is why I keep harping on some things (the "princess" mainly being symptomatic for the fact that - AFAICT - your vision for the elves is very different from what nemaara has already done).
I have never argued from the perspective of the Big Rework (for which the drakes role is still up for grabs, btw) here, merely from changes that have already happened and are still actively ongoing. If WoV should become mainline again, you can be certain that anyone actually working on tying up the story will have to take it's events and lore into account (personally, I'm not doing much right now, but I am reconsidering the role of the drakes for "arc 3" based on WoV and your ideas...).

Beyond that, you should better direct your questions at Pentarctagon ;-)
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
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name
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Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name »

Whiskeyjack wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 8:38 am
nemaara and doofus-01 (mostly gameplay) have done considerable work on multiple campaigns by now (you might want to play new DiD, Liberty, and SoF at some point, though the latter only received gameplay updates AFAIK).
I had meant to get to playing them but work on WoV took up the time.

The gameplay changes from doofus-01 to SoF sound intriguing and well thought out.

However, reading the dialogue changes to Liberty on github was shocking. The characters portrayed as campy in WoV are only observed for a brief time. Those characters that are around for longer are meant to show more sides of themselves or grow into deeper and more mature individuals through their experiences. If they remained "flat" for too long they would become tedious and too unrealistic. At first glance at least, it looked like the new Liberty might have turned the main protagonists into campy flat characters meant to be the butt of jokes throughout the whole campaign. I hope I discover otherwise when I play it. But in any case, I did partly try to match some of the new Liberty's use of humor via colorful characters with the tertiary characters and even the secondary characters (to a lesser extent) in WoV.

Oddly enough those are the ones that got mixed reactions from you but maybe you have similar reservations about the rewritten Liberty?
Whiskeyjack wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 8:38 am
I might even point out that nemaara sent ItsTom and RangerLOL your (Sigurds) way, when they wanted to work on drake lore (I have no idea what came of that though).
IIRC, ItsTom did not have enough time to work on it, so it did not go as far as they were planning. What did get done seemed to agree with elements of the glider caste as developed by ESR and ourselves. Namely the role of gliders as messengers and possibly their keeping some kind of a spoken history.
Whiskeyjack wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 8:38 am
The positions between which I am trying to mediate are not you vs. nemaara, but rather between the ongoing attempts to improve mainline lore and the introduction of a new entity further splintering it (now, I think most of the points concerning 1.14 campaign canon have been addressed, but as I keep pointing out, the game has not stayed there and is evolving).
As far as we have been informed, the only potential new canon conflicts are between WoV and what nemaara has issued more recently than our own WoV rework that began in January?

Now keeping in mind what you know of the reworked v2.0 WoV, please reread nemaara's original lists of criticisms of the v1.0.x WoV: [1] [2]

... Every critique in those posts was incorporated into the rewrite. If need be, I can go over those critiques, one by one, and explain how v2.0 answered each. Should I?

After all those critiques, nemaara/yumi then complained about the fact we have a scenario with a lich and that dilutes the effect the undead are meant to have in her rewrite proposal (she provided no prior warning this might be an issue in her original complaints). So I changed the lich to a lich-lord according to nemaara's idea (mentioned only briefly on discord) of the lich-lords being, IIRC, some kind of pantheon with different individuals playing different demigod like roles (Jevyan being akin to the lich-lord of war) with the concept of the lich-lord Siravan (a kind of world-maintainer like Atlas and a magical-mad-scientist-reality-tinkerer). Also, like Jevyan in the new canon (I think?), Siravan cannot be truly killed in the events of WoV (hopefully this should be a bit more clear in some dialogue changes I have done based on feedback).

The reason I am giving you this history is to show we have made many, many changes to _attempt_ to keep up with all of this. Yet now there's issues with new elves replacing the old elves we have in WoV. And from what nemaara has indicated plus what you are saying now, there's plenty more piecemeal changes on the way. And for some reason, WoV is the only mainline campaign that has to be updated in such a piecemeal fashion. No one is having to update HttT to keep it in mainline while changes are drip-fed to canon one commit at a time.

And let's not forget, SigurdFireDragon began the project to create a mainline drake campaign back in 2018, well before all this nonsense.
Whiskeyjack wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 8:38 am
This is why I keep harping on some things (the "princess" mainly being symptomatic for the fact that - AFAICT - your vision for the elves is very different from what nemaara has already done).
If the only blocking issue preventing WoV being restored to mainline and no longer pestered, is changing the official title of one character to represent an elected position rather than an inherited one, then that is not at all a bad trade. If the same character needs to be debuffed to a magic-less low level unit that also is acceptable.

Yet how likely is it at this point that one more one sided compromise from us would be enough.
Whiskeyjack wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 8:38 am
This is why I have asked what your intentions for the greater campaign canon are, and what should/needs to be changed in other places.
[...]
If WoV should become mainline again, you can be certain that anyone actually working on tying up the story will have to take it's events and lore into account (personally, I'm not doing much right now, but I am reconsidering the role of the drakes for "arc 3" based on WoV and your ideas...).
At that point, just give me a nudge and I will review the later campaigns and the then-state of canon, then put together a much more detailed concept for where the drakes are headed from the events of WoV.

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