Default+Dunefolk era balance

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
Meeky
Posts: 9
Joined: April 10th, 2010, 12:33 am

Re: Default+Dunefolk era balance

Post by Meeky » June 3rd, 2018, 2:06 pm

My chief problem with Liminal is it just feels bad. I know it statistically doesn't matter if it's balanced right, but it's setup up to read that you don't have a penalty during Dawn and Dusk - 2 turns out of the whole day/night cycle - while you have a penalty during every other time of day. You don't get a bonus during Dawn/Dusk either; it's JUST a penalty.

It feels bad.

Computer_Player
Posts: 111
Joined: March 16th, 2008, 6:39 am

Re: Default+Dunefolk era balance

Post by Computer_Player » June 3rd, 2018, 2:29 pm

Some people talked about changing the non-penalty to an actual bonus. I'm sure the units can be tweaked such that the math checks out the same as it is now. Hope that makes it feel better. Either way, it will feel different.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1148
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Default+Dunefolk era balance

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » June 3rd, 2018, 2:42 pm

Meeky wrote:
June 3rd, 2018, 1:43 pm
The above incident also really drove home the flimsiness of the Falcons. Since it was a larger 1v1 random map (a desert, at that), I'd created a couple falcons to grab villages early. They never got a chance to put up a fight. Saurian Skirmishers and Drake Gliders ate them alive. For their price, they really are not cost-effective even for use finishing off enemies, especially since other Dunefolk units benefit so much more from level ups (such as Rovers > Explorers). Falcons need a buff. Badly.
Would reducing the cost instead also work/help, I wonder?
Computer_Player wrote:
June 3rd, 2018, 2:29 pm
Some people talked about changing the non-penalty to an actual bonus. I'm sure the units can be tweaked such that the math checks out the same as it is now. Hope that makes it feel better. Either way, it will feel different.
It can definitely be tweaked so that the math works out just about the same as now in the standard schedule, at least. Non-standard schedules might well end up with different bonuses, though.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

Meeky
Posts: 9
Joined: April 10th, 2010, 12:33 am

Re: Default+Dunefolk era balance

Post by Meeky » June 3rd, 2018, 3:11 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
June 3rd, 2018, 2:42 pm
Meeky wrote:
June 3rd, 2018, 1:43 pm
The above incident also really drove home the flimsiness of the Falcons. Since it was a larger 1v1 random map (a desert, at that), I'd created a couple falcons to grab villages early. They never got a chance to put up a fight. Saurian Skirmishers and Drake Gliders ate them alive. For their price, they really are not cost-effective even for use finishing off enemies, especially since other Dunefolk units benefit so much more from level ups (such as Rovers > Explorers). Falcons need a buff. Badly.
Would reducing the cost instead also work/help, I wonder?
A 1 gold cost decrease might do the trick, 2 at most. I wouldn't go any lower than that. If the cost WAS decreased, I don't think they'd need a buff.

If their gold cost remains the same, some buff is needed.

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 3453
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: Default+Dunefolk era balance

Post by Pentarctagon » June 3rd, 2018, 3:17 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
June 3rd, 2018, 2:42 pm
Computer_Player wrote:
June 3rd, 2018, 2:29 pm
Some people talked about changing the non-penalty to an actual bonus. I'm sure the units can be tweaked such that the math checks out the same as it is now. Hope that makes it feel better. Either way, it will feel different.
It can definitely be tweaked so that the math works out just about the same as now in the standard schedule, at least. Non-standard schedules might well end up with different bonuses, though.
Would that be related to this PR?
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1148
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Default+Dunefolk era balance

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » June 3rd, 2018, 7:10 pm

Yes.

I'm not entirely convinced on that PR, but the general concept is something that I'd like to see happen (my last comment there outlines what I'd consider to be intuitive, if I recall correctly). I'd also considered mixing the spirit of that PR with the idea of #2669, in other words reimplementing the PR's effect but with WFL or Lua.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
Eagle_11
Posts: 724
Joined: November 20th, 2013, 12:20 pm

Re: Default+Dunefolk era balance

Post by Eagle_11 » June 3rd, 2018, 7:32 pm

It would be an improvement, as currently must use weapon-specials to define an soft-chaotic(awful?) alignment. Soft version would obtain 10% instead 25% and suffer no penalty.
Thats cause there has got be an difference between an simple bandit and an undead creature of darkness, they both are evil, yet probably not at the same degree.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1148
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Default+Dunefolk era balance

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » June 4th, 2018, 12:11 am

Um. I'm pretty sure you can do that without weapon specials, just make the unit fearless. If you want to make it fearless without displaying it in the sidebar you can use an object:

Code: Select all

[object]
  [effect]
    apply_to=fearless
  [/effect]
[/object]
(For the record, that will also work for healthy and loyal.)

If it needs to be set in the unit type, you can't use an object, but I think you could use a hidden (nameless) trait.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

Meeky
Posts: 9
Joined: April 10th, 2010, 12:33 am

Re: Default+Dunefolk era balance

Post by Meeky » June 4th, 2018, 4:36 am

Thats cause there has got be an difference between an simple bandit and an undead creature of darkness, they both are evil, yet probably not at the same degree.
I don't think you should look at Chaotic, Neutral, and Lawful as a scale of Evil to Good necessarily. Would you argue that the simple peasants turned bandits that were the protagonists of the Liberty campaign - all of whom are Chaotic, mind you - are evil?

Chaotic and Lawful, for the purposes of this game, indicate by-and-large whether a creature operates best at night or in the day. Lorewise, I'm sure it's potentially an indicator of how law-abiding or orderly an individual is.

----

As I play with the Dunefolk more, I rarely find myself spamming a couple breeds of units like you might for other factions in certain matchups, partly because you need different kinds of ranged damage. Soldiers can't stand on their own without being mashed by ranged units; Rovers are very solid, but they aren't dedicated ranged units; Riders are darned good shots, but unlike foot archers only get 40% defense on mountains and villages / castles. (And being Liminal, they actually have less damage than Bowmen once you start factoring in time of day.) Burners do fill this role, but they're very expensive for it - 19 gold.

It feels like a good mix of units is paramount to most any match. You want a couple Soldiers to take out high defense foes; you want several Rovers and a couple Riders. You want at least one Dune Herbalist (because why WOULDN'T you?) to keep your line alive, and you want to throw in Piercers and Burners based on the composition of the enemy. This means that your force is always mixed, and your that is something I like. I never feel like any unit in the roster is truly a waste. As much as I hate the Falcon as is, getting 1 Falcon is usually a fair investment for nabbing villages (except maybe on very small maps like Isar's Cross).

With all of the above said, I am not a pro player. I'm of middling skill. People more experienced than I have put in their two cents on Dunefolk/Khalifate balance in the past. These are just observations based on my own experiences.

Computer_Player
Posts: 111
Joined: March 16th, 2008, 6:39 am

Re: Default+Dunefolk era balance

Post by Computer_Player » June 4th, 2018, 11:58 am

Reducing falcon cost would make it more balanced, however it wouldn't help its actual usefulness such that it actually IS a balanced addition to the faction as a whole.

Comments on my proposed Experimental dunefolk stats?

P.S. I now think poison on herbalist is a bad idea.

Also riders need re-balancing, especially with regards to vil grabbing mentioned earlier and their unit descriptions. A progression of level 1 8 mp, level 2 9 mp and level 3 10 mp, while reducing hill and mountain terrain defence by 10% would harmonize things better IMO.

I mean, level 2 swiftrider is described as fastest dunefolk unit and yet its barely able to keep up with basic wolfrider. level 3 windrider is rumored to be comparable to elves and doesn't have more mp than level 2 guy.
Attachments
2p — Swamp of Dread replay loyalists vs dunefolk.gz
(29.34 KiB) Downloaded 27 times

User avatar
Xalzar
Posts: 197
Joined: April 4th, 2009, 10:03 pm
Location: New Saurgrath

Re: Default+Dunefolk era balance

Post by Xalzar » June 4th, 2018, 4:21 pm

Computer_Player wrote:
June 4th, 2018, 11:58 am
Also riders need re-balancing, especially with regards to vil grabbing mentioned earlier and their unit descriptions.
I mean, level 2 swiftrider is described as fastest dunefolk unit and yet its barely able to keep up with basic wolfrider. level 3 windrider is rumored to be comparable to elves and doesn't have more mp than level 2 guy.
Balacing issues aside:
-level 2: the description states that they are the fastest riders, which they indeed are;
-level 3: the description compares the skill with the bow, not the movement speed.

So, don't blame the descriptions. :eng:
Feel free to propose more mps but leave the descriptions alone. ;)

Computer_Player
Posts: 111
Joined: March 16th, 2008, 6:39 am

Re: Default+Dunefolk era balance

Post by Computer_Player » June 15th, 2018, 4:37 am

Xalzar wrote:
June 4th, 2018, 4:21 pm
Computer_Player wrote:
June 4th, 2018, 11:58 am
Also riders need re-balancing, especially with regards to vil grabbing mentioned earlier and their unit descriptions.
I mean, level 2 swiftrider is described as fastest dunefolk unit and yet its barely able to keep up with basic wolfrider. level 3 windrider is rumored to be comparable to elves and doesn't have more mp than level 2 guy.
Balacing issues aside:
-level 2: the description states that they are the fastest riders, which they indeed are;
-level 3: the description compares the skill with the bow, not the movement speed.

So, don't blame the descriptions. :eng:
Feel free to propose more mps but leave the descriptions alone. ;)
If the proposed level 2 and 3 mp changes are implemented then level 2 swiftrider could be updated since windriders will be the true fastest riders (not necessary though since windriders are just elite of the swiftriders.

Further it is not clear that level 3 compares only archery skills since the description frequently combines the two as distinctive characteristics of Windriders:
- its name as a "Wind"rider as an advancement of Swiftrider implies speed as its primary attribute
- "- Windriders, horse archers of such speed and dexterity that rumors are always spread that they have elven blood." implies a connection not only in terms of elven dexterity but also elven speed.
- " riding with great speed through the lines of battle to rain arrows down upon the enemy" again describes them not only as exceptional archers but as having "great speed" that is actually just equal to basic fast mounts of other factions.

This is not to say its a bad description, I'm just saying that it just so happens that balancing rider mp also happens to better align it with its description.
9 mp level 2, and 10 mp level 3 is actually comparable to elven scout speed and dexterity.

Post Reply