[mainline] Melee "marksman"

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revolting_peasant
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by revolting_peasant » December 23rd, 2017, 5:17 pm

Transfermium wrote:Don't we have a Master at Arms as the name of the Lv3 unit in the Fencer line?
Yes, we do. Will edit my post. Although - we could theoretically change either that one, or Fencer, to something else.

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revolting_peasant
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by revolting_peasant » December 26th, 2017, 8:38 pm

Added a few more options I've come up with / have been suggested: Meleur, Ninja, and Wranger.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 14th, 2018, 4:23 pm

This does bug me a little, but I'm not convinced a change is really worth it.

Option 2: This is quite viable, but I really like "marksman" for ranged attacks and don't think it should be changed.

Option 3: Of the rename options people have come up with, I think only "accuracy" and "precision" work at all. I feel like there might be a word that works even better, but the only thing coming to mind is "riposte" which is really quite different.

Option 4: If the ability were replaced with something else that has the same purpose, what would that be? I don't have any ideas on this front, but it could well be better than simply renaming the ability.
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monochromatic
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by monochromatic » January 14th, 2018, 7:26 pm

'Marksman' for melee doesn't really bother me either; after all, a melee weapon increases one's reach, thus hitting the target (or the 'mark,' as it were) is in its own way a kind of ranged 'marksmanship.'

If we are changing the term (I don't really think breaking Wesnoth's legacy is an argument: ideas and terms should be as clear and logical as possible), then I'd prefer accuracy over the others.

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revolting_peasant
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by revolting_peasant » January 14th, 2018, 9:50 pm

monochromatic wrote:'Marksman' for melee doesn't really bother me either; after all, a melee weapon increases one's reach, thus hitting the target (or the 'mark,' as it were) is in its own way a kind of ranged 'marksmanship.'
I disagree. If you're fighting someone up close, person-to-person, you wouldn't call him a "mark". Nor are you usually aiming your sword at a specific point in/on their body which you might call a mark. So "Marksman" just doesn't work for melee.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Deciton_Reven » January 15th, 2018, 8:15 am

It's pretty common for a pickpocket or scam artist to pick a "mark" and then go after that one person. Maybe in the most literal sense of 1v1 you aren't going to pick a mark, but in a fight between multiple people on each side like Wesnoth shows us, it would be rather important to pick out a guy and be able to hit them without having the rest of the fight around you interfere. In that way you would have a mark. (In the case each unit on screen represents many people it's even more important to be able to pick out important marks and take them out to weaken the squad efficiently.)

Also while I'm a fan of marksman on melee is fine, just in case: Focus could easily be used as a rename and I haven't seen it suggested.

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revolting_peasant
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by revolting_peasant » January 17th, 2018, 4:25 pm

Deciton_Reven wrote:It's pretty common for a pickpocket or scam artist to pick a "mark" and then go after that one person.
You choose the mark for pocket-picking when you're away from him - you "mark" your target, so to speak.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by hrubymar10 » April 15th, 2018, 8:47 pm

Much bigger problem is it in other languages.

For example Czech have 'marksman' translated as 'odstřelovač' which means somebody very skilled with bow and only bow...

option 1 is not good idea IMO.

option 4 would be great :?

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 15th, 2018, 9:18 pm

That seems a bit suspect as a translation though, as in principle it would make sense in Wesnoth to use marksman on ranged weapons other than the bow... in fact I think even core does that, on the drake scout's breath weapon. In English the word implies someone who's good at hitting a target; they could be using a bow, or a gun, or darts.
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Eagle_11 » April 16th, 2018, 10:33 am

well, 'Swordsmanship' ?
'Warrior's Prowess', 'Melee Prowess', 'Melee Proficiency', 'Fencer's Merit',...
'Marksman' isnt that removed from reality actually, as standing army professional troops of medieval got distinguished by their Mark or Badges they had. Im fairly ascertain there existed an 'Mark of the Sword' bestowed upon Man-at-Arms in a military atleast once.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Sudipta » April 16th, 2018, 10:53 am

swordsmanship would only apply to swords, so its not a good idea.

IMO, For melee units making a new ability seems best. Perhaps give it a minimum 50% CTH instead of marksman's 60 %. That would make it a kind of slight upgrade to melee fighting power and thus could be given to a variety of units - e.g. Duelist, Elvish champions, Assassins, basically anyone having a lot of grace and agility in melee combat.
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Vyncyn
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Vyncyn » April 16th, 2018, 6:27 pm

Currently only the only units using marksman on melee are swordsmen, so "swordsmanship" would still works for mainline.

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revolting_peasant
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by revolting_peasant » April 21st, 2018, 8:59 pm

Vyncyn: You make a valid point, but "swordsmanship" is not an adjective.

I have another idea, though. How about "blade master"? While it doesn't apply to people with clubs, tentacles etc. - it does apply more widely than being a good swordsman.

(I still like Mêleur the best though, and it's as general as we need it to be.)

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by beetlenaut » April 22nd, 2018, 7:36 am

Swordsmanship means "the skill of fighting with a sword" (source). Also, as a native English speaker, that's what I understand it to mean. The word doesn't say anything about being especially good at it. "Master" does. We could use "blade master" or "sword master" in mainline and "club master", "spear master", "hammer master", and so on as needed in UMC.

But, we also could just use "master" by itself couldn't we? We could have sword, blade, 7x4, melee, master. How is that any worse than longbow, pierce, 9x4, ranged, marksman? It's a short and simple word, it seems pretty obvious what it does as a special, and it can go with any weapon.
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by GunChleoc » April 22nd, 2018, 8:10 am

beetlenaut wrote:
April 22nd, 2018, 7:36 am
But, we also could just use "master" by itself couldn't we? We could have sword, blade, 7x4, melee, master. How is that any worse than longbow, pierce, 9x4, ranged, marksman? It's a short and simple word, it seems pretty obvious what it does as a special, and it can go with any weapon.
+1 :)

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