Legend of the Invincibles

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Elvish Nightprowler
6
13%
Elvish Overlord
0
No votes
Elvish Seer
8
17%
Elvish Warlord
2
4%
Exterminator
5
11%
Forester
1
2%
Goblin Ravager
0
No votes
Goblin Warbanner
0
No votes
Grim Knight
0
No votes
Faerie Incarnation
9
19%
Infernal Knight
2
4%
Lich King
3
6%
Lunatic Knight
5
11%
Monstrosity
0
No votes
Orcish Nightblade
0
No votes
Orcish Strafer
2
4%
Pilum Master
1
2%
Orcish Warmonger
2
4%
Phantom
0
No votes
Predator
1
2%
 
Total votes: 47

imaginarypotato
Posts: 20
Joined: September 8th, 2017, 10:58 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by imaginarypotato »

dabber wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 8:26 pm
shevegen wrote:
March 6th, 2020, 11:50 pm
- Elfalial or whatever his name, seems to have fairly ineffective ways to fight. Philip is
much better. I'd prefer if he has a good sneaky dagger attack and a good crossbow
hit or so, or perhaps sword + dagger. Right now his whirlwind attack seems so much
better than the rest that he has, if only due to poison alone. You can make him
better via items but ... he sort of is annoying. I'd prefer if he would be a bit more
effective, perhaps remove his attack possibilities to only 2 or 3 at max but make
them stronger.
You mean Efraim, the main character, right? I don't understand this at all. Efraim part 2 is truly a god who can slaughter almost everything in Inferno on his own.
I find Lethalia clearly weaker than Efraim, but still highly effective. I think a chunk of the difference is her need for both weapon damage and spell damage, while Efraim only needs weapon damage.


To be fair OP said that he has not finished the campaign and since he picked the Lethalia path, Elfraim would be under leveled at the start of chap 8.
lhybrideur wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 2:20 pm
I have a dragon rider and an elder mage that just can't be killed.

Elder mage has really powerful magical ranged attacks (59 x 3 arcane, 36 x 6 fire, 28 x 5 ice) and with a powerful staff (27 x 5) with drain becomes nearly unkillable.

Dragon rider does massive damage with the spear (123 x 4) and can heals himself with the draining bites (36 x4 ). Same for distance : decent damages with the fire breath (25 x5 for me at the moment) and healing with shadow breath (18 x 4).

On the other hand, I have the same problem with the battlerager. He can kill bosses, but instadie when facing several units.

I don't find Scythemaster really interesting but it might be because of how I leveled them up.

For the record, I'm still playing 3.2.1 on 1.12 so my answer might be heavily outdated.
Its not super outdated, Eldermage is still good. Dragon rider is a little bit worse, but about the same in power (handful of balancing to item drops indirectly nerfed him and some other guys).

Agreed on scythemaster, I also think he is garbage but mostly because there are not a lot of good scythe drops atm. Scymaster's main appeal is whirlwind, but I find that between your leaders you got plenty of whirlwind and if you want more then you got the shadowwalker to pick, who has other useful things (magic attack, crossbow slot and skirmisher ) and a lot better swords to choose. Without using whirlwind scymaster is simply weaker then other attackers like the swordsmaster and relying so much on whirlwind to be useful means that he struggles to keep up in longer levels where the damage penalty starts to add up.

More scythes might make him (and exterminator) better but right now its kind of hard to use them.

forgotten
Posts: 1
Joined: March 9th, 2020, 8:32 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by forgotten »

Great game, I still hate the rain.

Notes on various things (latest beta):
Dropping items to ground only available in first two turns or on a keep.
The three book set (Treatise..., Al-Fusul..., Theophrastus...) unusable as only one book can be equipped at a time (which I'm otherwise fine with).
The item storage window is unordered in the sense that any item may show up in any order. While everything is available it's a minor annoyance to have to scan the whole list for what you're looking for.

Always happy with new and reworked items, "What might this be good for?" And I love the demilich.

In general, non-magical ranged attacks have no good book that specifically advances the ranged attack, while the melee hitters have several.

dabber
Posts: 378
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

I think a unit must be evaluated not by overall power, but by whether it holds some clear utility/entertainment over other units. For example, I don't like the Dwarf Battlerager, but I recognize that it holds an awesome niche spot that has plenty of power when used properly. Similarly I don't like the Champion in general, but I recognize that Parry and Careful help define an effective playstyle. Because there is a easy path to making them interesting and/or effective units, they shouldn't be changed.

I would immediately change the above list to drop a few units that obviously hold a role. Specifically, there isn't a need to ask about Celestial Messenger, Champion, Duelist Wizard, Duke, Dwarf Battlerager, Elvish Assassin, Elvish Gryphon Rider.

Even better, reverse the poll. Ask "Which units do you never use?" Then discuss improving the real cellar dwellers - Chaos Rider, Elvish Juggernaut, Elvish Overlord, Forester, Pilum Master, Predator, Scythemaster, Warlock. Really I don't touch the bandit line at all because only Exterminator with Chaos attack seems interesting.

nachkar
Posts: 47
Joined: December 26th, 2015, 1:01 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nachkar »

A few characters called Fortune Tellers appear in some scenarios and randomly change legacies of any units that make a deal with them, taking some gold
I believe thats the most elegant as it allows for some planning. In other words the other options seem/feel like a random option to cure a random problem, possibly pretty frustrating, while just as for shops and missing a critical gem for crafting, this allows for some agency to the player over the situation, allowing him to correct or rather rerroll one or two legacies oh the current army
____
Opinion on characters :

In the bandits line, there's also that guy with the ranged impact attacks and lots of -impact res, with some marrowrends he ends up pretty good and his stun (slow) also helps quite a bit. the rest meh.

chaos rider I actually use as a full-fire mobile unit, sadly his ranged attack is pretty weak if his ra,ged fire was more consistent and perhaps if he was a bit tankier he'd be a moving fire-dealing fortress, as I imagined him.

Elvish Juggernaut and Deathlord are some of the worst offenders to me. Melee "bulky" guys with neither potential to demolish the ennemy quickly nor any good defense = will very probably get obliterated, especially the undead one. The juggernaut can have a high amount of regen, but that only helps if he survives and it costs quite a few upgrades. Maybe with some basic defenses (hp or res) and cheaper regen he'd end up good

Scythemaster, slow, not enough dmg, no defense, small aoe with downsides... meh. Pilum Master, nice hybrid unit not enough juice. Perhaps a next upgrade or anything special to stand out?

Elvish Overlord and Ancient lich. I'd say overlord is the one with too much competition. He's decent but outclassed by other arcaners (in terms of damage, mobility, tankyness, utility). Ancient lich is only good with the long upgrade path to get many weapons on it, but really powerful enough if you go that route.

The loyal and bandit archers are very underwhelming too.
_____
Some extra suggestions :

Perhaps the loyalists could get some stuff to do with morale or fighting in formations? (fits the theme and they have many underpowered units). As for bandits, i dont know the opposite or so? Would avoid having to "find something special" for each one of so many units

As for the elves, some very powerful mods when in forests/shrooms? the fact it is so situational/not always available should allow for some strong or specific power, giving them a nice identity (something like not only their usual high def% in forests but also more res and/or half damage taken, or perhaps poison and drain immunity in forests (which also boosts the value of juggernaut's regen).

Another suggestion if applicable would be to give them extra damage to any attack that has poison (when in forests or all the time?).
If codeable this would have the elegant advantage of also boosting several underused poison-themed items by making those very elven-aligned strong items. Alternative if not codeable is something that's already in game, that is stronger poisons but once again who wants to poison and wait for poison to work? Or debilitating poisons (as in any poison inflicts slow on top? that might go well hand in hand, and if possible at all something to "proliferate" that poison would be fun too? thinking especially of elvish assassin as less of a bow-murderer (theres tons already)and more of a poisoning hermit but maybe this is going too far).

imaginarypotato
Posts: 20
Joined: September 8th, 2017, 10:58 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by imaginarypotato »

I agree with Dabber that units should be judged based on their own unique utility. I tried making comparisons to other units in my previous post ( for example I said arch nerco is bad because other mages do what it does better). Looking back at it now not only I only talked about units in the poll and my opinion was that most of them were usable and others were outclassed; but a lot of units that need to be discussed are not in the poll. Also I think I was a bit to harsh on the Alich before, I was mainly thinking about part 2 but in the first part its main weaknesses are a lot less common so its better there. So I want to say somethings about some other units not included in the poll and are bad/outclassed.


First up soul shooter: who I think is one of the worst level ups. First of all its undead, a huge red flag because your going to die to about a quarter of the units in part 2. Undead can be redeemable but not with its awful stats. It has 7-3 melee and 13-4 + poison ranged, pathetic to compare champion bowman has 8-3 + struggle / 12-4 + marksman and I already said that I think champion bowman is under powered. Its better because marksman makes it reliable were as poison is only good at blocking regen and struggle is a lot better at letting bowman defend himself. Elvish archers make soul shooter look even worse, nightprowler and assassin both have more average DPS. Soul shooter needs a lot of upgrades to become even plausible, leveling up a few times to gain basic marksman and then you need speed upgrades. One of the advancements infect can acutally be bad since the walking corpses can block your other units from attacking. You can get arcane arrows but they are weak and mages exist. The only good advancement is leeching, which helps a little but does not solve this units problem of dying fast and not doing much damage in return.

If you want a frail ranged attacker pick something like elder mage or assassin, they do more damage and can acutally live 1 fireball demon. Soul shooter needs significantly more stats and possibly more upgrades to be good at all.

Abomination: is almost as bad as soul shooter. It's only attack being 12-3 melee + Poison is literately worse then some level 3 units and it has nothing else. It comes with poison but its just not very good, a lot of your foes are immune and the damage sucks; it can block regenerates but I would rather use a unit to just kill the target then one to block its healing. The upgrades give it more sustain and although they are significant its still not enough to compare with other tank units like dwarfish protector. Oh and I almost forgot its main attack is bite and nothing drops bite replacements.

Poison is underwhelming and the unit based on poison is also underwhelming.

Orcish nightblade; shares a similar story with the abomination. Its built around poison which is bad but it has much better stats and some of its upgrades help. Nightstalk can come in handy and magically returning knifes lets it do some relevant damage; there are a also a lot of awesome knife drops. I'd like to see this guy (and the other orcs) in part 1 it would be a lot better there; Idk how you would write it into the story though.

Nightblade has some cool things but given the way the campaign is balanced is not the most useful pick.

Zombie rider: is disappointing. First of all it gets no extra axe damage from revenant and its new attack 6-4 plague is weak. Upgrades improve the plague up to the point were you can get monstrosities. Cool but pointless outside of maybe chapter 2 and 4 but in 2 your still powering up your army and giving xp to this unit is a waste. In other chapters your spawned zombies will just die super fast or lag behind and be useless for anything but villages. Maybe giving this unit more power and perhaps giving it multiple types of things it can make with plague could give it a niche.

This unit just does not do anything but make more zombies so it's worse then every other rider.

Monstrosity: is an worse zombie rider. It has less hp, MP and no axe it too only gets its the ability to make more zombies as well and those are also weaker. It can fly but is still slower then zombie rider, it has leeching but keeping a unit this bad alive a little longer is a tactical mistake.

I don't know how to fix this unit, maybe just make it level up into another zombie based unit.

Predator: it focuses way to much on its gimmicks to be good. It's stats start inferior to other achers. 5-4 melee + backstab and 11-4 marksman ranged is really bad. Backstab is cool but hard to make use of without skirmisher and other units do a lot more damage with their backstabs (elvish assassin also gets backstab and does more bow damage). The guided is pretty helpful but the others are really situational, execution is ok but elvish assassin has a stronger one and the others give it more dmg vs humans, orcs, dragons and elves and the boost is pretty big. So this unit is in the awkward situation were it's fine in part 1 but terrible terrible in part 2 (you find barely any of this units targets).

The way to fix predator is to give it an abitily to help in chapter 2, possibly add skirmisher so it can use backstab more effectively as well.

Those are the 6 that really stood out to me as weak or too situational to be very good, might do more later but I'm out of time for today.

Delicius169
Posts: 179
Joined: February 16th, 2015, 5:02 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Delicius169 »

Hello everyone,
Just a few notes- cause I havent played for a long time...
for balance

Soul shooter- one of is advantage is, that he can be lvled up from zombie, therefore you can craft for him extra weapon. It is a big advantage over human bowman. After Ancient lich/ Demilich my most favourite undead unit.

Ancient lich/ Demilich are amazing units ever, because of so many possible weapon slots. I remmeber having Ancient lich with 4 marrowrend weapon, focusing on meele impact attacs, or for my amazing Lich king (one more weapon over Ancient lich)- healer, which is described in wiki, few post above.

Elvish Overlord- I would improve him, by giving him AMLA for leeches/ arcane meele/ spell suck. Spell suck is not used yet, so this could be most interesting skill for arcane caster.

Also I am thinking about Dwarfish Technocrat, who does not seem so popular in this poll anymore; there were changes I agreed with (maybe I proposed them? not sure), that dissabled possibility to ad strikes to ranged attacks (so it is not easy to give him more than one shoot anymore).
I am thinking about the weapon, which can be crafted- which gives explosive attack and lighting type of damage now- I think, this weapon could be improved. I would suggest giving it (0-25% penalty for damage). This way the weapon could be more interesting even for other units.
In this case, dwarfish technocrats AMLA for damage would have to be lowered a bit.

Undead could get more interesting by having instead of Legacies, some kind of Past. It could be by their race (were they humans? elvs?...)

so just a few notes.
I feel happy that this topic is still alive, hope that I will have time to play it once more, sometime...
thank you Dugi for all your work.

dabber
Posts: 378
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Undead in part 2 are definitely a problem, but they have access to incredible armours that seriously attenuate their weaknesses. I suppose I should try using them sometime. I think undead are fine in part 1, but that makes "fixing" them in part 2 difficult. I choose not to discuss them for now.

Attached file is some comparison of stats and AMLAs of archer type units. Not the easiest to read I'm sure, but it has numbers. A few points:
* For many units, adding an attack means subtracting a damage. Not for the elvish archers. But it is true for Champion Bowman and Predator bows.
* Elvish Assassin pays a double AMLA for FOCUSED. Not the others. Predator loses damage to get FOCUSED and GUIDED.
* Elvish Assassin has huge damage. After 3 AMLAs, Assassin 98, Nightprowler 70, Champion Bowman 65, Predator 60. Certainly it (elven archer) should be the highest damage, but that is a big advantage.
* Assassin is low on hitpoints (59, next lowest is Nightprowler at 67), but I don't think 8 hitpoints means much.
* Assassin is high on XP (160), but that is only about one AMLA (20%) more than the lowest, which is Champion Bowman at 130.

In general, I think FOCUSED is so good that it should have a penalty with it. I would add -1 damage (or -1 attack) to all the FOCUSED AMLAs and remove the double AMLA from the Assassin FOCUSED.

If we wanted to nerf Assassin, which I am NOT suggesting, the path is super easy - add minus 1 damage with each bow attack increase. That would drop its damage after 3 AMLAs to 84. Still the best, but less of a lead. Again, I am not suggesting this right now, just pointing out a path.

Predator can be improved slightly by removing the damage penalty for GUIDED. As above, I think FOCUSED is so good that it should have a penalty with it. GUIDED over FOCUSED is a very small increase, and should definitely not have a penalty. Similarly, on the melee side, remove the -1 damage for getting another melee attack. Its melee is terrible. Those really aren't enough improvement though.

Another thought to make Predator more viable and different is to restructure its damage by giving it fewer attacks. That fits with GUIDED also, because the attacks almost all hit. Right now, the bow starts at 11 damage 4 attacks. Make that 23x2. First AMLA (bow) is +3 damage for 26x2. Then (bow2) extra attack with -6 damage for 20x3. The bow3 becomes +2 damage, repeat 10. Damage after 3 AMLAs is now 66 (22x3), which is a slight increase. It also means the special slaying AMLAs are less debilitating generally, because their -1 damage applies to fewer attacks. I would make FOCUSED -2 damage instead of -1 if going this way.
The Predator needs something interesting besides the racial slaying powers. LURK (double damage to lonely targets) might be interesting, and certainly has some value. SOUL_THRASH (1% insta slay, gain wrath) might be fun, since it can only come from a book now. Could go big and give it MURDERLUST or KILLHUNGER. A new bow attack with less damage, but TRICKERY, HORRID and GUIDED could have interesting utility.
Attachments
ArcherUnits.xlsx
Unit AMLAs
(16.94 KiB) Downloaded 17 times

imaginarypotato
Posts: 20
Joined: September 8th, 2017, 10:58 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by imaginarypotato »

dabber wrote:
March 13th, 2020, 8:27 pm
Undead in part 2 are definitely a problem, but they have access to incredible armours that seriously attenuate their weaknesses. I suppose I should try using them sometime. I think undead are fine in part 1, but that makes "fixing" them in part 2 difficult. I choose not to discuss them for now.

Attached file is some comparison of stats and AMLAs of archer type units. Not the easiest to read I'm sure, but it has numbers. A few points:
* For many units, adding an attack means subtracting a damage. Not for the elvish archers. But it is true for Champion Bowman and Predator bows.
* Elvish Assassin pays a double AMLA for FOCUSED. Not the others. Predator loses damage to get FOCUSED and GUIDED.
* Elvish Assassin has huge damage. After 3 AMLAs, Assassin 98, Nightprowler 70, Champion Bowman 65, Predator 60. Certainly it (elven archer) should be the highest damage, but that is a big advantage.
* Assassin is low on hitpoints (59, next lowest is Nightprowler at 67), but I don't think 8 hitpoints means much.
* Assassin is high on XP (160), but that is only about one AMLA (20%) more than the lowest, which is Champion Bowman at 130.

In general, I think FOCUSED is so good that it should have a penalty with it. I would add -1 damage (or -1 attack) to all the FOCUSED AMLAs and remove the double AMLA from the Assassin FOCUSED.

If we wanted to nerf Assassin, which I am NOT suggesting, the path is super easy - add minus 1 damage with each bow attack increase. That would drop its damage after 3 AMLAs to 84. Still the best, but less of a lead. Again, I am not suggesting this right now, just pointing out a path.

Predator can be improved slightly by removing the damage penalty for GUIDED. As above, I think FOCUSED is so good that it should have a penalty with it. GUIDED over FOCUSED is a very small increase, and should definitely not have a penalty. Similarly, on the melee side, remove the -1 damage for getting another melee attack. Its melee is terrible. Those really aren't enough improvement though.

Another thought to make Predator more viable and different is to restructure its damage by giving it fewer attacks. That fits with GUIDED also, because the attacks almost all hit. Right now, the bow starts at 11 damage 4 attacks. Make that 23x2. First AMLA (bow) is +3 damage for 26x2. Then (bow2) extra attack with -6 damage for 20x3. The bow3 becomes +2 damage, repeat 10. Damage after 3 AMLAs is now 66 (22x3), which is a slight increase. It also means the special slaying AMLAs are less debilitating generally, because their -1 damage applies to fewer attacks. I would make FOCUSED -2 damage instead of -1 if going this way.
The Predator needs something interesting besides the racial slaying powers. LURK (double damage to lonely targets) might be interesting, and certainly has some value. SOUL_THRASH (1% insta slay, gain wrath) might be fun, since it can only come from a book now. Could go big and give it MURDERLUST or KILLHUNGER. A new bow attack with less damage, but TRICKERY, HORRID and GUIDED could have interesting utility.
Its true that some items help undead a lot the problem is that even with good armors, only some undead are worth using them on (in part 2). Undead like soul shooter and deathlord can work with enough items but so can any other unit if you try hard enough and other undead such as the demilich, the reaper and the lich king make better use of undead buffing items since those units don't suck on their own. Even in part one, its really hard to justify some undead units like zombie rider because there is still a lot of magic and they are slow (although things like ancient lich are a lot more viable)

An idea that might work is to significantly buff undead's abitily to resist its weaknesses, through AMLAs or just a stat buff. Demons just shred undead super fast and if your not a spell caster, or a ghost its even easier for them. That stops them from being unusable, but some weaker undead like abomination and monstrosity still need use some new tools to be useful.

For predator I like the idea of adding lurk, although I'm skeptical if it would be useful since in part 2 most enemys are grouped up. I think murderlust and kill hunger are good but not something thats going to save the unit; I think we should focus on improving it's strengths so its worth using over other archers. Soul thrash would be a waste of an AMLA imo, the chance is simply really low if your not a berserker, but adding trickery and horrid might work. Also what about instead of removing the knife damage penalty's for new strikes, instead remove backstab and significantly improve the base damage up to like 8-4 or 9-4 backstab does not fit in with this unit very well anyways and more damage would help it a lot defensibly.

boyoyoy
Posts: 19
Joined: January 14th, 2019, 3:55 pm
Location: Germany, at home

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by boyoyoy »

Hi,
in the second scenario in chapter 6:
shouldnt there be a first_time_only=no in the event in line 375?
boyoyoy
Still thinking about, if I should think about what I should think about...

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Dugi
Posts: 4955
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

I have read your feedback and I agree that some units are strictly worse than others and are thus nearly useless. I am not going to reply to individual comments because there's just too many of them, but it is nevertheless very valuable.

I have changed the poll so that I could also have some data to work with. Here are the results of the first poll:
Spoiler:
I am not going to resolve this by increasing the stats of unpopular units (although I might tweak them along the way), I am currently putting together ideas for new abilities and other specials that would improve each unit in its own, unique way. Wesnoth 1.14 offers new possibilities and the widespread use of lua allows much less code for implementing more complicated effects.

__________________________
boyoyoy wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 2:03 pm
Hi,
in the second scenario in chapter 6:
shouldnt there be a first_time_only=no in the event in line 375?
boyoyoy
Yes, I have added it.

imaginarypotato
Posts: 20
Joined: September 8th, 2017, 10:58 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by imaginarypotato »

New units in the poll yay. Also at the time I am writing this you forgot to reset the votes dugi.

Doing the same thing I did last time

Nightprowler is always worth considering, but struggles with power. It comes with decent ranged and melee damage it's only issue is that other units are going to do a lot more damage in one of those types, for example elvish assassin does far more with the bow and swordsmaster does far more with the sword. It can get frenzy to improve its ranged attacking, which helps a lot on medium strength targets such as demons but often I find that a stronger ranged attacker can kill them without taking as much retaliation damage. Berserk is usually great for boss killing but since it's only lesser berserk the thing your trying to kill might live, forcing you to devote multiple units and that point you can just use a dedicated boss killer. Also although this unit can always fight back, the lack of defense upgrades means it still needs to be covered up. It's 2 built in ability nightstalk and ambush are very underwhelming in chapter 2 as well.

I like Nightprowler if it has a good legacy, but without one it can and will miss out on kills which is a big deal on harder difficulties.

Elvish overlord is also outclassed. It's a unit built around leadership but can only get leadership level 4, which is terrible since the duke gets level 5 and so do your leaders. This unit also does not get any additional supporting ability leaving it completely out classed by other leadership based units. What it offers is more attacking power then the duke, although you have only 1 weapon slot. One of these guys is given to you in the main campaign and I took him all the way to the end of the inferno. Despite him gaining thousands of XP he was still weak so and ended up being used pretty much exclusively to carry an eagle's cactus fruit.

This unit needs much better leadership potential to be worth it, at least leadership 5 and then some additional unique supporting moves nothing else has. Get rid of ambush and spider web swords to make room for improvements (they don't even make much sense on this unit anyways.

Elvish seer is in a vacuum strong, but is not acutally very good. That is because it suffers from the most competition possible, Lethalia one of the main characters who has much better stats in everything including a stronger fairy fire, this units main attack. Lethalia does have a lot of upgrades to choose from so one might think you can use her and a seer but the seer also need a lot of XP to get penetration because in 3 chapters the main enemy demons, have a 60% resistance to arcane. You also need more xp to unlock this units useable melee attack so your devoting a lot of xp into a unit thats worse then another you have to use. If your giving that much xp to a mage then why not use the elder mage who can use the most reliable damage possible, lighting or a demilich who has chill wave to hit demons. To be fair the seer is better in part one, since arcane resist is less prevalent there.

The seer is just to similar to Lethalia which makes sense since in the campaign she starts as one but because of this training up a new seer is just going to be a waste of resources since you always have a better unit. To buff the seer I would give her the magic blade on level up and replace it with some kind of unique spell, my idea would be one thats an Area attack that heals your nearby allies based on the damage its dealing; which would be unique, possibly good and fit in with this units theme. Another option would be to give this unit the abitily to upgrade her healing.

Elvlish warlord is a bit better then overlord but still outclassed. It actually has level 5 leadership, cantor is pretty good and gains a decent abitily in zeal aura but has the same issues as overlord. The duke has more supporting abilities including warlords rule and the invincibles also get access to leadership. This guy just does not offer very much, its attacks are ok but worse then all other elves.

Warlord is just another example of a unit who needs something new to work with, cantor is unique to this unit but is just not enough to make it worth using over alternatives.

Exterminator on its own is a bit weak but its items are far from that. It gets some incredible daggers out their to find, the dagger of sicarii stands out as one of the best to me. But whats even better is that this unit gets it's very own item set and with that set this unit becomes really good. The only item its missing are good scythe drops, since those are rare and its also rare to get the full exterminator set. If you do gear this unit up you get access to a whirlwind user which is pretty good and skirmisher backstab is always going to be great. Without much items this unit is pretty unimpressive, but like the destroyer or champion if you get them you wont be disappointed. The exterminator is a spoiled unit, nobody else gets their own item set.

This unit does not really need any changes, perhaps it could be slightly buffed so its a bit better without finding good drops.

Forester is one of the worst units. Its stats are far worse then other archers (7-5 struggle 8-5 marksman). Eariler I explained why I think the nightprowler being a mixed attacker is not very good and this unit has less damage then nightprower and does not come with nightstalk. then there are the Elvish assassin and champion bowman do way more damage in ranged and they have upgrades that are worthwhile.This unit gets parry, which would be good if it was on its bow but instead its on this units sword which makes no sense since this unit is not sword based. even if it was the champion starts with parry and has a much better sword as well as defensive upgrades that makes it a much much better counter attacker then the forester could ever dream of being.

Forester is another archer that cannot keep up with the competition. To improve it I would throw the parry upgrade out the window and replace it with something else entirely. Then possibly increase this units damage.

Goblin ravager is a decent scout but nothing more. You get good movement points and access to slow, but the rest of this units tools are underwhelming. The bites are weak and do far less damage then other scout units like the gryphon rider or the ghosts. Those other scouts have other things going for them like hit and run attacks, backstab and defensive use. But this units upgrades only slightly improve its melee attacks which are already not useful. Sure you can always get value out of a fast unit with slow but you can do much better then that.

This unit would make sense in another campaign but its just not that useful in loti. Honestly I think this units previous form the goblin pillager is better simply because its very cheap and can do the same things.

Goblin warbanner is surprisingly not completely terrible. Its stats are godawful, but fortunately it never needs to touch more then a few enemy with its spear ever because this unit has a pretty great abitily, wardrums. 2 movement points to everybody nearby for free at the start of your turn. Its a great way to move up slower units like the destroyer since you don't need to use a lot of slots on speed items instead just put the speed boosts on this guy and now you can focus on making multiple other units better. But wardrums is the only good thing this unit has, its other upgrade leadership level 3 is laughable, this unit starts slow has a bad trait and does unspeakably bad damage.

This unit has one cool trick and nothing else, it would be a lot better if when upgrading lost it's bad trait and got much better attacking power.

Grim knight is the worst horserider. It has 15-2 charge lance which seems good until you realize that the lunatic knight has 15 - 3. This unit comes with an axe but the dragon rider is also a lance user with another attack and that does more damage too. What this unit gets to stand out is... nothing. It can get knockback which something the lunatic rider gets for free and it can also get annihilated by just about any enemy thanks to its crippling weaknesses even for lancer this unit is way to frail.

As a lancer this unit's job is to do a crazy amount of damage but this unit does the least damage from its category and does nothing else. It needs something else badly, my idea would be to make it chocobone exclusive then ditch the axe and give it a massive damage buff in the forms of its upgrades. Boost its lance to something like 20-2 and add upgrades for things like focused, first strike and drains to make it more reliable for attacking.

Faerie incarnation is simply good. It heals the most out of the dedicated healers (34) and thats good; it even comes with slow to cripple things. The only thing better is a catus fruit which heals 40 but thats an item and you don't always get those. This unit's only other trick is conviction which is ok but not a priority since leveling up this unit is tricky.

Faerie incarnation is boring, but really good I don't got much else to say about it.

Inferno knight is new and I have not used it very much. It's looks ok but its also trying to do a lot of things at once, it's stats are usable though so maybe its worth using. Idk yet I'll have to use this unit more and unfortunately death knights are hard to get so I wont have many chances too.

Lich king normally is not very good but it can be with one trick. Its the tomb of necromancy, use it on a mage or thief (they have the most weapons to pick from) give them a bunch of weapons that have abilities like deathwhirl and murderlust then get the nercomany abitily with the book, kill the unit and the items stay equipped. With those free abiltiies this unit is pretty soild through sheer power since you can make it do pretty much anything you want. Without that trick this unit is pretty lackluster though and there is also the demilich who can do this trick too and gives up the good melee attack for much better resistances, flight and ranged power. Lich king is expensive to make good, you need a lot of xp and speific items to make it worth it. Since it's taking so much I don't think its worth it unless you got tombs lying around to try for a really good leagcy.

I would be interested in seeing the tomb of nercomeny just removed and this unit buffed instead, since without that trick it really sucks (t demilich is useable without the gimmik but might need a buff and achient lich for sure would also need a buff without the tomb too).

Lunatic knight is increadible. Sure it's frail and can only charge but it does so much damage that its worth it. With leaderchip and added backstab I was able to cleanly 1 shot demon lords with this guy (they also 1 shot me back when I missed). The crazy damage is cool but is not the main appeal to this unit its the upgrades. You get both penetrates plus hit and run, which makes this guy really good at taking out 1 important target and getting back behind your front lines to stay safe. It also makes this unit great for scouting since its natrally fast and with hit and run can attack and run along even further.

This unit is not one that can be used without some support since it's own it will die but give it some and its great.

Orcish strafer is okay. It does good ranged damage and likes having acuess to both perice and fire. Unfortently its upgrades are not very good, poison and incinerate are quite bad even when stacked beacuse the demon's this guy is fighting are bulky and need to die quickly or they will slam the strafer back hard since you have a bad melee attack. It also has to compete with other archers, but it is in chaptere 10 so it has far less competition and beacuse of that it's useable.

Strafer could be better though, I would start by getting rid of posin and incinerate and replacing them with slow and dazzle, those 2 speicals help this unit a lot more if its target lives then the prevous upgrades do now.


Warmonger is also just ok. It's melee damage is good, but its not the best and other things like swordsmaster do more. Mayhem is a decent special but nothing too special since your mostly fighting medium strength targets in chapter 10, evisceration and the leadership upgrades are good though. The units main issue though is that in the only chapter you get one not only do you have one set as a leader but you also get a lot more units who need swords. Since you need a lot of swords for some of the starting units too, its hard to get enough swords to go around so its not worth leveling up a second warmonger.

This unit just wishes it was not in only chapter ten, if you have some in part one they could do fairly well since you got team support and good damage. A buff to it's bow would not hurt ether though, right now it's nearly unusable

Phantom is also underpowered. The axe damage is good and it gets whirlwind but nothing else. I would rather just use a unit like the shadowalker who is only a little bit weaker but comes with ranged attacks, skirmisher and no crippling weakness to fire. You could use a phantom if you had a bunch of good axes to spare but its not going to be a very special unit, just one you have to protect very well and can sometimes use a fairly strong whirlwind.

Phantom just needs more stuff, it has so little upgrades. I'd start by giving it some things to improve longevity, leeching, horrid, dazzle and a way to improve its weaknesses would go a long way. That would break the unit's lore a bit though, so perhaps making it super offensive could work as well, possibly add berserk or maybe even an attack with recoil.

Pilum master is outclassed. The unit tries to be defensive with its bulk and spear, but the dwarfish protector does it so much better; it might do less damage but makes up for it with unyielding and much better bulk. The difference between the 2 is staggering, Pilum master gets picked on by elemental attacks meanwhile protector is one of the very few units who can survive an assault from the final boss. Pilum master just does not do enough damage to do anything besides play defensibly well. It gets trickery but its pretty bad, its to slow to work on anything but the very few boss battles and for those you got other sources of trickery that are not on such an awful unit.

This unit not only needs a defined niche but much better stats, I would go as far as to give it a whole new strike for it's melee attack and then 1 more MP. Right now there is no reason to use this unit as a defender or attacker it does nothing.

Monstrosity, nightblade and predictor I already talked about earlier so I wont repeat my self on those.




TL DR

elf nightprowler is okay, has to compete with other archers
elf overlord is bad, other things are better at leadership
elf warlord bad, other things are better at leadership
elf seer is irreverent because lethalia exists
exterminator gets carried by its good items
forester super bad, has literally nothing good
goblin Ravager bad, it slows things and nothing else
goblin warbanner decent, has 1 good abitily, nothing else
grimknight bad, weaker then every other lancer
faerie incarnation is great
lunatic knight is great
lich king is okay, needs necromancy book to do anything of note
orc strafer is okay, good ranged damage but wishes it had better upgrades
orc warmonger is okay, good melee damage but everybody else in it's chapter also wants swords
Pilum master super bad, it defends and attacks worse then everything else

Shinigami936
Posts: 7
Joined: February 26th, 2015, 3:09 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Shinigami936 »

On Chaos Rider, I think a cool way to make them more interesting would be to move them from Cavalier to a branch of Knight of Magic.

Thematically I feel it fits better, Knights of Magic are themed as wizards learning more martial arts/duelists learning magic, so Chaos Rider could fit in as a heavier, mounted, path, compared to the agility of Warlock. Cavalier being a level 3 unit, it seems strange to just ditch the crossbow and suddenly turn into a top-tier magic knight.

Antisocial/Anathema wouldn't be out of place on Chaos Rider given it's appearance, who wants to fight a line battle with a flaming horse with some knight that looks straight out of hell?

Give him a staff slot, AMLAs to make stomp AoE in some form, flaming radiance either in an AMLA or baseline, and perhaps an AMLA for incinerate on his sword.

He should be powerful enough to warrant Antisocial/Anathema (which imo, should not have an AMLA to be removed on Chaos Rider), while being a weaker caster than Warlock and taking into consideration Chaos Rider lacks terrain mobility/defense being a mounted unit.

And just some mechanical ideas for other units you may rework, what about a unit with an aura that increases damage taken by itself and all adjacent units, friend or foe? Or an attack that provides excellent damage or utility (AoE debuff, like dazzle, slow, etc..) in exchange for causing damage to the attacker?

dabber
Posts: 378
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Minor point - should the Alliance ring have double the drop chance since it is literally worthless by itself? Or is Alliance sufficiently powerful it should be rare? I have tons of items, but only one Alliance ring, so I haven't tried it.
Suggestion - make Alliance an argument, and let some unit(s) AMLA the ability. Alliance 8, Alliance 16, Alliance 24, Alliance 30.

shevegen
Posts: 266
Joined: June 3rd, 2004, 4:35 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by shevegen »

Slightly making the alliance ring better may be useful.

I have a small bug report to make or an improvement.

There is this part where you go into hell or something like that. Here you can buy autorecall units.

But the display is like 83.333 which makes no sense. We have gold coins at +1 or -1, so fractions
should not appear. I assume an additional rounding should be done - either 83, or 84, but not
the decimal numbers.

Also I would recommend to display the cost even if you dont have enough money. Right now
it is not displayed, so I assume I don't have enough money - in this case I'd like to know
how much money I am missing.

By the way, I think the campaign was probably the most work in total given how much scenarios
etc... are part of it.

lhaire
Posts: 23
Joined: April 21st, 2014, 8:29 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by lhaire »

I just recently upgraded to Wesnoth 1.14.11 and version 3.2.6c of the add-on (from Wesnoth 1.12 and add-on 3.2.1). One thing I noticed is that I can no longer drop items on the ground when a unit is equipped with one. It seems like the only option is to unequip it (which puts it back in inventory). Is the ability to drop an item on the ground no longer available?

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