Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

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revolting_peasant
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Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by revolting_peasant »

So, I'm playing Under the Burning Suns, on Medium.

Now, in most Wesnoth campaigns, there's a significant element of "go to place X on the great continent, face creatures known to inhabit place X". That helps guide your choice of unit advancement - especially for Elvish Shamans. Also, you know what the different units are useful for; you have some experience playing them (unless it's the beginning of HttT I guess).

But in this campaign, both of the above don't hold:
  • Healers turn out to have a special function you didn't expect - protecting against dehydration.
  • The Mystic line has the apparently-useless ability of "daze", which is basically throwing sand in people's faces; and I don't get how/when this is useful. Perhaps it has some sort of "secret use" I'll discover later?
  • The advancement tree is similar, but also - quite different: The offensive line still keeps the Healing ability; the defensive line is the longer one (L4 vs L3); and the Sun Sylph illuminates.
So, my question: How should I decide...
  • On the balance of Sun Singers and Shamans?
  • How many Mystic-based units I should recruit/recall and divert XP towards?
PS - "Only ever recruit Mystics" can be a valid answer if you can make a decent argument for it :-P

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Poison
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by Poison »

All I can say is a) daze is really useful, it makes someone less likely to hit you AND you can hit him more often, it really is overpowered and b)Sun singer and lv3 are destructive, really useful also for the campaign because they are flying units (the lv3) - and the hp difference is huge. I only got a couple of shamans,no more (but recruited/recalled several mystics).

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revolting_peasant
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by revolting_peasant »

Poison: But - not really. i.e. it's just a 10% difference to each. And the price is that the sand-in-their face attack isn't magical and is weaker, which against well-defended enemies is losing almost a whole attack's worth of expected damage upfront. Maybe it was a different percentage in previous iterations of the campaign?
Last edited by revolting_peasant on June 21st, 2020, 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Poison
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by Poison »

Well to me 10% seems a lot and powerful enough, it doesn't make sense for the attack to be magical and would really be overpowered. Zhul (is that her name?) can advance and use this attack 4 times I think, which makes it very likely to succeed.

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revolting_peasant
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by revolting_peasant »

The Elvish Shaman Slow's its enemy with her spider-web. Now that's powerful and useful.

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Poison
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by Poison »

Poison wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 6:02 pm
Well to me 10% seems a lot and powerful enough, it doesn't make sense for the attack to be magical and would really be overpowered. Zhul (is that her name?) can advance and use this attack 4 times I think, which makes it very likely to succeed.


I didn't say that. See bold. Going from 40% to 30% chance to be hit is huge. Slow can be used from horses, which should last more than shamans.

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revolting_peasant
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by revolting_peasant »

If 40%->30% hit rate is huge, than cutting the damage by half is humungous. And unlike the reduction of hit rate, that reduces the _maximum_ damage, making the enemy unit's effect next turn more predictable. And of course, prevents fast movement.

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revolting_peasant
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by revolting_peasant »

Didn't get any suggestions about mystic recruitment and advancement until well after I've finished the campaign :-(

Cen7
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by Cen7 »

revolting_peasant wrote:
June 21st, 2020, 9:34 pm
Didn't get any suggestions about mystic recruitment and advancement until well after I've finished the campaign :-(
Then you didn't need it so much? ;)

UtBS is probably my favorite main-line campaign. I certainly play it the most. I play on hard, and generally my aim is to complete the campaign with no deaths -- challenging, but do-able. (I'll often give myself a pass with regard to the two first-level units in the final scenario.)

I'm sure many different strategies are possible. My own makes heavy use of mystics and fighters and medium use of scouts. I've not found much benefit to riders that is not handled at least as well or better by fighters. YMMV.

To answer your specific question, my usual development plan is to raise Yuni (the mystic gained in the opening scenario) to the healer/Shyde line and recruit four more mystics along the way (early scenarios) to the Sun Sylph line. Really, this is sufficient firepower, healing, and lighting to carry me through all scenarios. You could have more, but you don't need more.

Daze, by the way, isn't as good as slow, it's true, yet (1) you already get a slowing attack from your pathfinders, and (2) having access to daze and slow is better than having only slow. Thus, while you're not "better of" with regard to a specific unit (your mystic), you are better off with regard to your army, which is what you should really focus on. ;)

EDIT: And now you can try replaying the campaign on Hard. :D

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revolting_peasant
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by revolting_peasant »

@Cen7: Who is Yuni? I haven't gotten a Yuni... I think. There's the loyal Zhul, maybe you mean her?

Also, the Sun Sylphs only heal +4 - which isn't that significant. Their healing doesn't stack, does it? Anyway, I see your point about the firepower. And I suppose they have decent HP at L3. And they illuminate, which Druids and Shydes do not.

Cen7
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by Cen7 »

Yuni is the Mystic with Zhul on the sacred island in the first scenario. I think at easier levels, you even get a second Mystic, whose name escapes me.

The Sun Sylph line only heals 4, it's true. That's why you have two 8-healers (Zhul and Yuni). Rotate troops, space out your healers to maximize their healing. It should suffice. Stack your Fighters, with their formation ability, especially when you're underground and no longer have the favorable terrain you've enjoyed in the early scenarios. The difference between a 30% defense on cave floor and a 50% or 60% because you've got the support of two or three other Fighters is *huge*. Likewise, the illuminate and slow abilities give you a significant boost if you go against the trolls. (Less useful against dwarves, but I always side with the dwarves to fight the trolls.)

Scenario 3 also allows you to XP farm, if you have the patience for that. (No turn limit on the scenario.)

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revolting_peasant
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by revolting_peasant »

Cen7: Oh, I didn't notice "formation" stacks!

... but - scenario 3 does have a turn limit, so I'm not sure what you mean.

Cen7
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by Cen7 »

revolting_peasant wrote:
July 4th, 2020, 6:10 pm
... but - scenario 3 does have a turn limit, so I'm not sure what you mean.
No, it doesn't. ;)

Seriously, you haven't played scenario 3 to turn 12 and seen what happens? Try it. Reload your previous scenario 3 start (or if that's not saved, reload your scenario 2 end, which I think is automatically saved, and get into scenario 3 that way). Play through to turn 12. You may kill the orcs, and you may kill one of the undead leaders (I recommend killing the northern leader), and see what happens.

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revolting_peasant
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by revolting_peasant »

Cen7 wrote:
July 11th, 2020, 3:16 am
Seriously, you haven't played scenario 3 to turn 12 and seen what happens?
No, I was playing UtBS for the first time, hence my newbie question. I finished the level earlier than turn 12.

Cen7
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Re: Mystic economy in Under the Burning Suns

Post by Cen7 »

Yeah, that can be done, even on hard difficulty. You just don't want to. Do as I suggested, just so you can see what happens.

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