Legend of the Invincibles

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Elvish Nightprowler
17
15%
Elvish Overlord
7
6%
Elvish Seer
16
14%
Elvish Warlord
5
4%
Exterminator
14
12%
Forester
3
3%
Goblin Ravager
0
No votes
Goblin Warbanner
0
No votes
Grim Knight
0
No votes
Faerie Incarnation
16
14%
Infernal Knight
5
4%
Lich King
7
6%
Lunatic Knight
10
9%
Monstrosity
0
No votes
Orcish Nightblade
0
No votes
Orcish Strafer
4
3%
Pilum Master
4
3%
Orcish Warmonger
3
3%
Phantom
3
3%
Predator
3
3%
 
Total votes: 117

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
'Stable' version
Part II, Chapter VI, S2 'Who Am I'
Items lying around seem to appear on turn 2 instead of turn 1.
This was intentional because of some implementation details. It's no longer relevant due to the recent revamp of item system, so I changed it to turn 1.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
The 'feed, or do you want to stay weak' event for Efraim can trigger after you defeat the enemy leader, resetting your xp and your soul eater count.
Fixed.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
PII, ChVI, S3 'Into the Light'
immerse power -> immense
Fixed.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
Also, the 'Unit information' hotkey doesn't do anything for me.
For me, it does. Are you sure you pressed Shift + I and not Ctrl + I as it would be logical?
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
Is it intentional that I can't drop eqiupped items on the ground?
You can. It's just positioned in that small down arrow next to the unequip button.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
S7
were -> where
Fixed.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
EDIT:
I think 'firecast' might have turned my 1.14.9 wesnoth unresponsive just now. The problem is, I can't reproduce it, I'm not sure about the cause, and the log doesn't seem to be saying anything about it. I just know that I killed an enemy with firecast and then the game turned unresponsive before I obtained xp for the kill.
LotI2-Misguiding Lives-Auto-Save5.gz
Last lines of the log:
Spoiler:
The log is completely irrelevant. I don't know what caused it, but if WML freezes, it is guaranteed to unfreeze after some time (depending on the complexity of the code, it can be anywhere from a few seconds). Firecast is implemented purely in WML, no lua, so if it's really a bug in firecast, it should unfreeze eventually. If it doesn't, it's probably a bug in Wesnoth. LotI kinda stretches it to the limits.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
The fireball attack granted by the Pyromancer's Ring lacks an attack animation.
I could not figure out how to make the unit move, I could not do it like in the advancements. Now it should be different with the new inventory system, I might figure something out.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
EDIT 2:
Diamond description
properties -> properties.
You have corrected a correct word to the same word.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
EDIT 3:
Topaz description
is not neglectful -> is not be neglected
Fixed.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
EDIT 4:
PI, Ch5
You can enter the Eastern Guardian Room from the Library, but you can't enter the the Library from the Eastern Guardian Room.
That's a secret location, it shouldn't be too easy to find and Eastern Guardian Room is too easy to search.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
EDIT 5:
Tutorial
Delenia gains mp at the start of the 2nd turn.
Fixed.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
And I somehow managed to turn the Sword of Krux into the Twinkling Sword.
LotI1-An Orcish Assault-Auto-Save1.gz

I wanted to reproduce the bug and save a replay this time, but now I messed the tutorial up in a different way. ._.
Luckily including the same bug.
I tried to pick up the Sword of Krux within the 'Items' dialog, which didn't work. But when I stepped on the sword, it asked me multiple times if I want to pick it up, which apparently stacked it's effects?
LotI1-Tutorial replay.gz
LotI1-An Orcish Assault-Auto-Save1.gz
wesnoth-20200116-095558-4820.log
Can you give me exact steps where should I click to replicate this? I managed to cause it once, which generated multiple tutorial sword pick events that all added the sword bonuses to him. I never managed to generate them again, so I could not replicate the cause of the problem.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
Also, when Efraim stops you from using a 'back' button in the tutorial, the dialog closes afterwards even if you use the correct button.
When exactly?
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
EDIT 6:
Charging backstab
According to the description this weapon special is active when the victim is facing backwards to the attacker. But in truth it is active if and only if there is a unit on the other side of the victim which is an enemy of the victim. So it works just like backstab.
(Probably a mistake in the description, not in the code.)
It was based on an old description of backstab, if I recall correctly.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
EDIT 7:
It would be quite nice if you could buy multiple gems at once from the trader, even if it's just multiple gems of one kind. Imagine wanted to buy 20 gems and having to buy them one at a time.
I plan to overhaul the traders at some point, giving them fancier GUIs and something. I will try to remember this request.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
EDIT 8:
Across the Barren Land
The map makes me think that the side 6 leader (orcs) should spawn on 13,32 (human ruined castle on flat) instead of 44,15 (ruined sand castle in desert), and that on 44,15 a side 7 leader (drakes) should spawn. Sides 2-6 spawn a leader each, but side 7 doesn't. And there are 6 castles (not counting my start keep) but only 5 leaders spawn.
So maybe it's a mistake, maybe it's not. It certainly feels off.
Orc spawn corrected, but the drakes don't have any leader spawn event. It seems intentional, because there is an orc leader assigned to the keep on 44,15.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
EDIT 9:
Description Infernal Knight
Tales are told of the mightiest warriors and generals, who, cursed with hate and stung by betrayal, have experimented with demonic magic and returned back to this world as Death Knights. -> Infernal
Fixed.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
EDIT 10:
If my Knight carries a Precious Eagle Cactus Fruit (heal +40) and advances to a Paladin, the heals +40 will be discarded for the new heals + 4.
This might be true for any non healer unit that carries an item that grants a heal, advancing to a healer unit.

Native healing abilities disable healing abilites granted by items.
The current implementation of the item system would allow hiding all healing abilities except one. What do you guys think, should it be the sum or the maximum?
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
EDIT 11:
If a unit has overlapping 'heal more' advancements paths (like a healer unit with the legacy of light), whatever was chosen last is the healing ability the unit gets. So you could accidentally replace your heal +16 with a heal +11.
And in general it would be cool if overlapping advancement paths would count for each others completion and in case of legacy advancements, check if the unit already has the abilities or alignments an advancement would grant. (Looking at the Prophet or Celestial Messenger with the Legacy of Light advancements granting them a standard healing, lawful alignment, and illuminate.)
This would require quite an overhaul of the advancement system using some new features of wesnoth 1.14 (specifically, the possibility to add advancements using [effect]). I am, however, extremely fearful to touch the advancement system because it's one big workaround that is very error prone.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 16th, 2020, 10:09 pm
Efraim the Demigod is able to cheat himself an advancement by using 'Alter advancement' before he has leveled. (This might be the case for Lethalia as well if you chose to play as Lethalia in chapte VI.)
If he does so, the advancement option 'leadership (as level 5 unit)' shows up, even though he already has that ability. The game seems to think that this is the altered advancement choice, so I guess you really shouldn't 'cheat' that way, unless you don't want any leadership advancements avaible.
He gets several advancements by default, I am not sure if I should prevent the player from changing at least one of them.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 16th, 2020, 10:09 pm
EDIT:
How come that Efraims knife attack is attack only in Apologies?
He has it only as Preserved Lich, not as a Demigod.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 16th, 2020, 10:09 pm
EDIT 3:
Another Orcish Assault
For some reason my enemy has a village under control which is right next to my starting keep even though he is on the other side of the map. (32,33)
LotI2-Another Orcish Assault-Auto-Save1.gz
They control all the area outside of the town.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 16th, 2020, 10:09 pm
I've got a gem in my item storage. Also, some but not all units have apparently gems equipped. So far I've found 2 Diamonds and one Topaz. It's very confusing for me.
Spoiler:
I think this Topaz landed in my item storage when it was picked up last scenario as a 'Picked item x which you couldn't pick up.'
Picking up gems is implemented in the same way as picking up gems and the gems linger on that unit for a while. They shouldn't be shown. Can you give me a save file where they are incorrectly shown and instructions how to view them?
dwarftough wrote:
January 24th, 2020, 2:48 am
There is a bug in the version of LotI I've played (Don't recall which version, I'll write here when I am back to my comp). In chapter 10 "Idols Falling" scenario you need to kill all disguised demons in the temple, and the last of them is Demon False Prophet. I attacked him with Krux, and Krux redeemed him, and scenario wasn't finished properly, lesser redeem wasn't counted as a kill. I had to reload this move and just killed him in a normal way.
It should activate the kill event properly and if it doesn't, ending the turn while all demons are dead should trigger victory.
dwarftough wrote:
January 24th, 2020, 2:48 am
And btw, I didn't get how Krux is improved with achieving lesser redeem aim score. Does he acquire some stats improvement or what?
He gets some extra life, resistances, later also some damage and penetration.
WackoJacko wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 1:48 pm
I remember playing LotI a while ago (more than a year) and I'm pretty sure books used to add a 20% penalty to your max XP. However I can't find anything in the "Help" section, is this still the case?
No, they don't. Every book advancement adds 20% to the experience the unit needs to advance, just like any other. However, special units like demigods or preserved liches get less than 20% to the experience to advance normally, so the 20% from book advancements can be quite punishing.
dabber wrote:
February 6th, 2020, 8:57 pm
Greater Healing Potion is not restoring attacks anymore. On my turn, I attack an enemy. After that fight ends, I drink Greater Healing. I used to be able to attack again, but not now.
You have fixed it.
dabber wrote:
February 6th, 2020, 8:57 pm
New item drop system is definitely different. In part II, I get more better items, mostly. I think I've only see a Claymore (insta-scrap) once.
However, I almost never see a book. I think I have only gotten two books. While I know books are rare, this feels too rare.
Books were intentionally made quite rare. I can change it if you want.
Ah_Morre wrote:
February 22nd, 2020, 4:06 am
Hey I (finally) just finished the campaign, and I just want to thank you for your great and glorious work, this add-on is absolutely great, with so many new features and a well designed story, thanks for providing hours of entertainment!
I like reading this.
Whiskeyjack wrote:
February 10th, 2020, 1:29 pm
After all these years, I finally learned how you came to pick that name. I never got the idea to google it and then a person on my facebook friend list advertised a book and when I read it, I spotted something familiar...

_________________

Regarding that discussion about unit types being all but balanced in late game:

There was no way for me to predict what will emerge out of the properties I set to those units. I expected it to end up this way, but it's the expected consequence of being quite free to unleash your creativity.

I can make a poll about unit powers and those found to be weak will get some new or improved advancements, what do you say?

Whiskeyjack
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Location: Germany

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Dugi wrote:
March 2nd, 2020, 11:36 pm
Whiskeyjack wrote:
February 10th, 2020, 1:29 pm
After all these years, I finally learned how you came to pick that name. I never got the idea to google it and then a person on my facebook friend list advertised a book and when I read it, I spotted something familiar...
Welcome to the greatest book series I've ever read. I wish you as much joy with it as I had! :D

(It is also the only series I've ever read that's even better the second time while being already great :lol: )
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.

Konrad2
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Konrad2 »

Dugi wrote:
March 2nd, 2020, 11:36 pm
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
EDIT 2:
Diamond description
properties -> properties.
You have corrected a correct word to the same word.
Konrad2 wrote:
January 16th, 2020, 10:09 pm
I've got a gem in my item storage. Also, some but not all units have apparently gems equipped. So far I've found 2 Diamonds and one Topaz. It's very confusing for me.
Spoiler:
I think this Topaz landed in my item storage when it was picked up last scenario as a 'Picked item x which you couldn't pick up.'
Picking up gems is implemented in the same way as picking up gems and the gems linger on that unit for a while. They shouldn't be shown. Can you give me a save file where they are incorrectly shown and instructions how to view them?
Not exactly. That word is at the end of the sentence and the sentence is missing a period to end it.

Recall my Chaos Rider, check the item storage, check the 'gem' section.
LotI2-Search for Elves-Auto-Save1.gz
(444.37 KiB) Downloaded 48 times
(I'll answer the rest later.)

EDIT:
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
Also, the 'Unit information' hotkey doesn't do anything for me.
For me, it does. Are you sure you pressed Shift + I and not Ctrl + I as it would be logical?
I don't know anymore, but it does work for me now.
Can you give me exact steps where should I click to replicate this? I managed to cause it once, which generated multiple tutorial sword pick events that all added the sword bonuses to him. I never managed to generate them again, so I could not replicate the cause of the problem.
I can only try.

Start tutorial from campaign selection dialog or load an auto-save from turn 1
Move Efraim on to the Sword of Krux
Take it
Collect the gems
Open the crafting dialog and craft Twinkling Sword
Open the items dialog, but do not unequip Twinkling Sword, instead try to 'Pick up items on the ground' (nothing seems to happen)
Now unequip Twinkling Sword (and all sorts of weird things ensue)
Walk over Sword of Krux to pick it up, you will pick it up multiple times, probably tied to how times you tried to 'Pick up items on the ground'
Enjoy your op Efraim
(Also, there will be no Twinkling Sword in your item storage, only a Sword of Krux)
Konrad2 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 11:21 am
Also, when Efraim stops you from using a 'back' button in the tutorial, the dialog closes afterwards even if you use the correct button.
When exactly?
I'm actually not sure anymore what I was refering to.
But I have noticed that so far I've not been able to actually create a Twinkling Sword, proper text and all. It's always a Sword of Krux or a Twinkling Sword with a Sword of Krux dexcription.
The current implementation of the item system would allow hiding all healing abilities except one. What do you guys think, should it be the sum or the maximum?
The maximum.
He gets several advancements by default, I am not sure if I should prevent the player from changing at least one of them.
He doesn't actually change any advancement, he instead gains an advancement on top while making one of the default advancements invisible to the system.
They control all the area outside of the town.
I figured that one out, the catapult attacks seem to create a unit at the hex of impact before killing that unit. So if a catapult attack hits one of my villages, the orcs gain control of that village.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Konrad2 wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 12:50 pm
Not exactly. That word is at the end of the sentence and the sentence is missing a period to end it.
Aha. I thought that period to be ending the line of your reply.
Konrad2 wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 12:50 pm
Recall my Chaos Rider, check the item storage, check the 'gem' section.
Ouch, this is a different problem than I thought. Any idea how could it get into the item storage?
Konrad2 wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 12:50 pm
Can you give me exact steps where should I click to replicate this? I managed to cause it once, which generated multiple tutorial sword pick events that all added the sword bonuses to him. I never managed to generate them again, so I could not replicate the cause of the problem.
I can only try.
Fixed.
Konrad2 wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 12:50 pm
(Also, there will be no Twinkling Sword in your item storage, only a Sword of Krux)
...
But I have noticed that so far I've not been able to actually create a Twinkling Sword, proper text and all. It's always a Sword of Krux or a Twinkling Sword with a Sword of Krux dexcription.
Actually, there was a bug that the crafting didn't remove the old Sword of Krux from Efraim, so he had two swords, leading to all kinds of weird behaviour. I have fixed it.
Konrad2 wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 12:50 pm
The current implementation of the item system would allow hiding all healing abilities except one. What do you guys think, should it be the sum or the maximum?
The maximum.
I will wait for the opinions of others.
Konrad2 wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 12:50 pm
He doesn't actually change any advancement, he instead gains an advancement on top while making one of the default advancements invisible to the system.
If it is invisible to the system, it might just not be updated. How long does the problem persist? Does it disappear after manipulating the inventory?
Konrad2 wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 12:50 pm
I figured that one out, the catapult attacks seem to create a unit at the hex of impact before killing that unit. So if a catapult attack hits one of my villages, the orcs gain control of that village.
Yes.

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edwardspec
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by edwardspec »

Dugi wrote:
March 2nd, 2020, 11:36 pm
The current implementation of the item system would allow hiding all healing abilities except one. What do you guys think, should it be the sum or the maximum?
The maximum. Sum is too overpowered (for example, 102 hp/turn from 3 adjacent Faerie Incarnations), and would give significantly greater bonus to player than to AI enemies (AI wouldn't know that it should position the healers to stack the bonus).

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

edwardspec wrote:
March 5th, 2020, 12:29 am
Dugi wrote:
March 2nd, 2020, 11:36 pm
...
The maximum. Sum is too overpowered (for example, 102 hp/turn from 3 adjacent Faerie Incarnations), and would give significantly greater bonus to player than to AI enemies (AI wouldn't know that it should position the healers to stack the bonus).
I cannot control how would the effects from different units combine. What I should be able to control is the interaction of multiple healings provided by a single unit. That is, whether a Faerie Incarnation with Precious Eagle Cactus Fruit should heal about 70 hp per turn or just 40.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Oh, I forgot this part. The legacies. The original intent was that each (living) unit has a legacy that gives more powerful advancements but may also turn out to be useless after wasting one advance. However, it appears that making the legacies immutable might not be as good as I originally thought it to be back then, seven years ago, when I was cycling and thinking about some random stuff.

So, I agree that there could be a way to change the legacy. It should not be easy or cheap, but it should not be unique. Here are some suggestions:
  • A book named Ode to Rejection occasionally drops and allows changing a unit's legacy at the cost of being consumed
  • Defeating Beelzebub or some other monsters that spawn randomly instead of Beelzebub corrupts the destiny and allow changing a legacy
  • A few characters called Fortune Tellers appear in some scenarios and randomly change legacies of any units that make a deal with them, taking some gold

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lhybrideur
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by lhybrideur »

Or maybe the fortune tellers could,in exchange for gold, say what is the legacy so we now if it is worth it to spend an advancement for "aware of legacy possessed", or could even "reveal" the legacy, meaning have the same effect than choosing the "aware of legacy possessed" advancement

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

lhybrideur wrote:
March 6th, 2020, 4:21 pm
Or maybe the fortune tellers could,in exchange for gold, say what is the legacy so we now if it is worth it to spend an advancement for "aware of legacy possessed", or could even "reveal" the legacy, meaning have the same effect than choosing the "aware of legacy possessed" advancement
That would defeat the purpose of the advancement that reveals the legacy.

shevegen
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by shevegen »

I am playing the campaign a bit. There are a few balance issues, IMO. For example, my two favourite
unit types by far are the scythe whirlwind guys and the flying healing messenger. I typically give them
epic weapons that cause more damage, more attacks too. Flying just beats everything else due to
mobility. Scythe whirlwind is not as good but it is fun. Philip can become quite epic. Overall, though,
I think the balance problems are a bit too big. Some items are so much better than others. But
anyway - this is not why I comment here.

During the storyline, in Part II in particular, the main letitia char or whatever her name, keeps on
changing whatever she is, like after the ashes part. But somehow she seems to lose her old
abilities? This always confused me.

I have two suggestions to make, and I am aware that this is not solely confined to your campaign
but a more general problem. Or perhaps ... actually three suggestions, and by the way, I have
noticed that the item interface has improved. It's much better than it used to be but still a bit
clunky to use.

Anyway:

- It would be nice if we could have an additional way to handle items. Like at the start of
the scenario or so, to quickly scan through items, and in particular have a simple "smash
into a random gem" to get rid of items that are not good. I would also recommend some
option that shows which item COMBINATIONS we already have. I have no idea how to
best display this but it would be nice if we could know. I keep on dumping everything
into the big item store then tend to forget what is there. :P

- It would be nice if advancements would not disappear. This is only a problem with the
main character, as she advances.

- Elfalial or whatever his name, seems to have fairly ineffective ways to fight. Philip is
much better. I'd prefer if he has a good sneaky dagger attack and a good crossbow
hit or so, or perhaps sword + dagger. Right now his whirlwind attack seems so much
better than the rest that he has, if only due to poison alone. You can make him
better via items but ... he sort of is annoying. I'd prefer if he would be a bit more
effective, perhaps remove his attack possibilities to only 2 or 3 at max but make
them stronger.

- It would be nice if we could actually show which particular advancements we
have selected, like "Bards aura III". I tend to forget how much was invested.

This may not be particular to your campaign alone, but instead should perhaps be
solved in general for ALL add-ons to benefit when they offer additional advancement
types.

By the way, while the campaign is not my favourite one (I just love the djinni one
with the summonable circles), it is by far the most epic. Having that many scenarios
is really great - I see that this is not easy to balance and tweak, but I think your
campaign in general offers the most in TOTAL for players to play. They can combine
lots of stuff here and it works quite ok.

- Oh one thing ... about Belzebub. Sometimes he seems to appear, but then he does
not. I guess when he was defeated in a prior scenario, but I am never sure if he
should appear again or not. Perhaps the dialogue could become a bit more
clear to indicate whether he may return, or whether he may not? I had strange
results, like when I first played it, he appeared always when I triggered him
and I could never beat him. And then, I could beat him on the first try when
I met him, due to picking the best unit combination.

- And another thing ... this is more of a help-file issue, in general. Perhaps all these
advancements could be shown in the help file interface, aka the legacy possessed
ones. Not sure how easy this would be to add, but it is just a suggestion, feel
free to disregard if it is too much work or not applicable. :)

shevegen
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by shevegen »

> That would defeat the purpose of the advancement that reveals the legacy.

I am fine with that explanation.

One slight problem is that some units seem so much better than others,
and then a player may want to have picked the better ones. I have no
good solution here, since balancing a game is difficult; but perhaps what
might work is if you could collect, in the long run, which units players
try to avoid, and then give the less useful ones a slight boost here or
there. (On the other hand, the really good units such as celestial
messengers, seem too good. I don't quite want to see them nerfed,
but they are literally like the best units by far: flying, healing, and
epic items for more power).

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

shevegen wrote:
March 6th, 2020, 11:50 pm
During the storyline, in Part II in particular, the main letitia char or whatever her name, keeps on
changing whatever she is, like after the ashes part. But somehow she seems to lose her old
abilities? This always confused me.
This is for storyline reasons. She has become a unit of a different race, which means she has entirely different powers afterwards.
shevegen wrote:
March 6th, 2020, 11:50 pm
- It would be nice if we could have an additional way to handle items. Like at the start of
the scenario or so, to quickly scan through items, and in particular have a simple "smash
into a random gem" to get rid of items that are not good. I would also recommend some
option that shows which item COMBINATIONS we already have. I have no idea how to
best display this but it would be nice if we could know. I keep on dumping everything
into the big item store then tend to forget what is there. :P
The possibilities of making a proper window-like user interface in Wesnoth are very limited and getting anything to work properly is very difficult. The one that is there now is beyond my abilities, it was created by a professional web developer who decided to help me out. I could try to imitate what is already there, but it would take me a lot of effort for such a niche thing. If a lot of players needed it, I'd consider it, but until then, it's too costly.
shevegen wrote:
March 6th, 2020, 11:50 pm
- It would be nice if advancements would not disappear. This is only a problem with the
main character, as she advances.
This is for storyline reasons and only early in the campaign. If she kept her undeath-related abilities after becoming living again, people would complain that it contradicts the story.
shevegen wrote:
March 6th, 2020, 11:50 pm
- Elfalial or whatever his name, seems to have fairly ineffective ways to fight. Philip is
much better. I'd prefer if he has a good sneaky dagger attack and a good crossbow
hit or so, or perhaps sword + dagger. Right now his whirlwind attack seems so much
better than the rest that he has, if only due to poison alone. You can make him
better via items but ... he sort of is annoying. I'd prefer if he would be a bit more
effective, perhaps remove his attack possibilities to only 2 or 3 at max but make
them stronger.
Maybe I nerfed him too much after he was too strong. I will wait for the opinions of others.
shevegen wrote:
March 6th, 2020, 11:50 pm
- It would be nice if we could actually show which particular advancements we
have selected, like "Bards aura III". I tend to forget how much was invested.
You can see it at the bottom of the Unit Information panel.
shevegen wrote:
March 6th, 2020, 11:50 pm
By the way, while the campaign is not my favourite one (I just love the djinni one
with the summonable circles), it is by far the most epic. Having that many scenarios
is really great - I see that this is not easy to balance and tweak, but I think your
campaign in general offers the most in TOTAL for players to play. They can combine
lots of stuff here and it works quite ok.
Man, you are really bad at remembering names. The main character who loses advancements is named Lethalia, the weak leader is called Efraim, the djinni campaign is called To Lands Unknown...

I kinda found To Lands Unknown to hide copious plot holes with impressive visuals, but those visuals were really... impressive. I wish I could draw like Inferno8 (the guy who made it).
shevegen wrote:
March 6th, 2020, 11:50 pm
- Oh one thing ... about Belzebub. Sometimes he seems to appear, but then he does
not. I guess when he was defeated in a prior scenario, but I am never sure if he
should appear again or not. Perhaps the dialogue could become a bit more
clear to indicate whether he may return, or whether he may not? I had strange
results, like when I first played it, he appeared always when I triggered him
and I could never beat him. And then, I could beat him on the first try when
I met him, due to picking the best unit combination.
You can defeat him multiple times, his spawning follows some rules. There is a counter of early scenario ends that slowly accumulates. The earlier you finish the scenario, the faster it increases. Once it reaches a certain threshold, the pillars for spawning Beelzebub. They will keep appearing until you spawn him and defeat him. His power depends on the expected power of your team. The counter will keep accumulating and the pillars will start appearing again if it reaches the threshold again.

The reason he is there is that it used to be beneficial to leave the enemy leaders until the last turn and kill anything they recruited for items, which was not fun and not the way this was meant to be played. I added Beelzebub to drop so many items that not finishing as early as possible would never be worth it.

shevegen wrote:
March 6th, 2020, 11:50 pm
- And another thing ... this is more of a help-file issue, in general. Perhaps all these
advancements could be shown in the help file interface, aka the legacy possessed
ones. Not sure how easy this would be to add, but it is just a suggestion, feel
free to disregard if it is too much work or not applicable. :)
You can see it at the bottom of the Unit Information panel.

shevegen wrote:
March 6th, 2020, 11:52 pm
One slight problem is that some units seem so much better than others,
and then a player may want to have picked the better ones. I have no
good solution here, since balancing a game is difficult; but perhaps what
might work is if you could collect, in the long run, which units players
try to avoid, and then give the less useful ones a slight boost here or
there. (On the other hand, the really good units such as celestial
messengers, seem too good. I don't quite want to see them nerfed,
but they are literally like the best units by far: flying, healing, and
epic items for more power).
I am adding a poll to rate the power of units so that I could boost the weak and unused ones.

imaginarypotato
Posts: 20
Joined: September 8th, 2017, 10:58 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by imaginarypotato »

The new poll is something that should of been made a long time ago, but better late then never.

I want to add in my own thoughts on (almost) all of the units above.

Ancient lich has to much competition. It has solid damage and some defensive utility but not much else. Its not as bulky as duelist wizard or as strong as elder mage, its good enough to consider using its unique talents but a quality team might not need them. Other mages can cover the same elements without having an exploitable weaknesses that can get them killed by a single demon with a jacked up fireball or shadowwave. You can get multiple of this unit using the tomb of liches book and undead legacy but its a chore doing that for a unit thats probably going to be outclassed unless you get really good legacy; and those things are rare as well.

Arch nerco is underpowered, it hits harder then ancient lich but has less attacks hurting its reliability. It also has a junk melee attack even for mage standards, its abitily necromancy is also junk since you don't want to let a unit that your feeding xp into die at all. It does not have any weakness but also lacks resistances which makes it a bit stronger defensibly then the ancient lich due to the prominence of fireball and shadow wave. Its main issue is that it offers little unique, other mage units will do more damage (elder mage) move quicker (seer) and are bulker (duelist wizard). Its other main problem is that you cannot always get a good legacy on it since you get only a few necromancers; a legacy like titans is crippling for this unit


Blackguard is strong but is lacking consistency. Its main attack is quite strong, very few foes resist impact but its not the easiest to make use of since blackguard is naturally slow takes recoil, loses some resistances and has no range attack. It does not help that destroyer is also good at single target elimination with its berserk attack and better overall bulk. Blackguard has a great abitly though and is a type of unit that might not be your first pick but can work for somebody who wants impact damage and darkness support, just make sure you have a strong healer and ranged unit to cover his weaknesses. Its not the most applicable unit but it has a role; perhaps a slight buff to its bulk would help.

Messenger is pretty good. All healers in loti are weak, they die quick even with items and need to use experience to upgrade their healing. Messenger's main strength is flight, making it very fast it and also comes very strong illumination helping it defensibly and boosting other units. Those 2 traits alone make it a good healer for a team that has mostly lawful or neutral units. Lightbeem is a solid attack and it also has access to maces, which is nice because there are a lot of good ones; some examples are godsmasher to do some damage or lilith's old precious to help it defend better.

Champion is incredible. If given some items to boost evasion it can kill with ease and defend at the same time. It has some issues with magical attacks but thats what the rest of the team is for. I don't think there is much I need to say here, this unit is good and people know it. If your someone who is inexperienced with this unit then I recommend reading its section on (https://wiki.wesnoth.org/DeadlyUnitsFromLotI)

Champion bowman is good but outclassed. It does strong damage and can defend a little bit but has a ton of competition. The champion can do damage reliably but so can other units, the elvish assassin, nightprowler and gryphon rider do ether close or more damage but have their own valuable traits such as speed and invisibility (more detail on this below). The champion bowman is stuck in an awkward middle ground, it does damage but not the most damage, it has melee and it has some bulk but not enough for it to be very strong. This unit badly needs a rework that gives it something that stands out and help it compete with the elves who dominant the archery category.

Chaos rider feels out of place. You would expect cavalier to turn into an even better rider but instead we get a complete 180 into a unit who looks who came right out of invasion from the unknown. It's attacks are also out of place, no more blade damage and now its fire, no more crossbow (why) and instead you get stomping paired with some weak fireballs. The fireballs are the first flaw with this unit, they are pretty weak so your better of trying to use a mage for fire damage. Its sword does decent damage but there are other sword welding units like sword master to compete with; the stomp attack is acutally pretty strong but you can't boost its damage with items which really sucks. This unit is trying to do a lot of things at the same time and it ends up being the best at nothing. I would buff it by adding back its crossbow and let the player craft weapons to boost stomps damage. A side note here the pyromancer set looks like it was made for this unit and its acutally pretty good on this guy.

Deathlord is junk. Its bulky but its not the only thing thats bulky and comes with a glaring weakness to arcane. It gets submerge instead of a better defensive ability like steadfast or healing; it has horrid which is decent but worse then parry. Its also super slow and has no exceptional upgrades. There are some good axes but Lethalia and REDACTED are in demand of your best axes as well as other units that don't suck. Undead are hard to use and if your going to use one then your better of using one that can acutally do something like the lich king. This unit needs a rework badly, I see no reason to use it over something like dwarfish protector.

Destroyer is great. Sure it has no ranged attack and its slow, but it gots everything else good bulk and good melee damage. It needs a few upgrades but once you got those you have access to lesser berserk making this unit a great boss killer since it has access to impact damage relevant since its rarely resisted. You need a fair bit of items and some team support to make it work but do that and this unit is a good choice to kill some of the strongest enemies. Imo Destroyer is one of the best designed units, its not sop strong that it feels like a must pick but when you find some items he can become a great addition to a team.

Dragon rider is a nice generalist but nothing to special. It does a lot of damage and can be used like a horserider but its bite gives him a safer option giving it versatility on the battle field. It's good defense and speed help it stick around and to the place where its needed most; firebreath is a bit weak but still helpful sinces its something that he can retaliate with. Its at its best charging and since it's bulky is not as risky as the alternatives, unfortunately its not doing much else since other units can do a lot better then its bite and firebreath attacks and later on in the campaign where everyone is stronger this guy can fall behind.
It could use a small buff, my suggestion would be to let the player craft a weapon to replace the bite attack, since right now it gets outclassed pretty quickly. Also Idk why this thing can be got from the grand marshal, it makes no sense thematically and is kind of dumb since you get only 1 of them and you lose out on getting a duke; personally I would never get this guy unless its from the grand knight even though your getting a crossbow.

Duelist wizard is very strong. I say that because it comes with a great toolbox, it has 3 useful magic attacks. Missie is reliable, chill tempest slows and fireball is strong AOE. All of that is nice but its main selling point is absorb, an incredible abitily that makes this unit deceivingly tanky. Its the sturdiest mage and can do better defensively then units who have armor in their sprites like the swordmaster; to make things even better it also has exceptional magic resistances. Duelist wizard works well as a ranged defensive unit that can still pack a punch, unless its using its melee attack.

Duke is the Ultimate team support. Its damage can be disappointing sometimes and it costs a lot of XP to make good but guard him well and give him some cleanups and the duke will never disappoint. Warlords rule, push, zeal aura and basic healing make this guy a dynamic support unit who will greatly improve your teams offensive power but still with some tools to help you defend. The duke can easily be the anchor to a squad based around winning fast, it just has one problem the invincible themselves can match this guys leadership. They can get leadership 5 and warlords rule as well and while it is costly for them to upgrade (remember they have other amazing upgrades they have to wait on) the duke is also expensive to upgrade and requests you to invest items into him since he is not an incredible fighter. The duke is expensive and because of that its hard to justify using one, but freeing up some XP for your 2 main characters and putting the leadership duty's on him can be a viable strategy since nobody does it better. I also has the legacy problem.

Battlerager is somehow simultaneously one of the worst and best units. It's berserk is strongest melee attack and thorns helps him defend a bit but the problem is that its berserk and your enemies can and will suicide a few units to take your battlerager down. The battle ranger also has no ranged attack so it will die fast, forcing you to defend him well. But defending him can be worth it use the craftable soul eclipse paired with some items like the drain-gloves, liquid hatred grey cloak and redshirt armor and you have a powerful boss killer. Berserk lasting 30 turns means that ether the rager or the boss dies and with the help of draining items you can stay alive and make sure its the boss the one dying. Its costly but when set up the battlerager is arguably the best boss slayer. It has though competition though the books like the wraithful combat and the guide to lycan can great powerful boss killers who don't die as fast there is also destroyer wants to take his job and he does not die as easily. Battlerager is hard to fit and hard to use but the reward is worth it.

Dwarfish hero is decent. Its the second bulkiest dwarf and has some good attacks to let it deal some damage back. It helps that this guy has good coverage the combination of blade, impact and fire damage lets him hit almost everything. It faces competition from the protector as a bulky unit, but it makes a name for itself by having workable attacks as well. Its a unit thats worth bring with you if you find one with a good legacy and you get a good chance too since you get one for free in chap 7.

Dwarfish Protector is great at defending and nothing else. Its access to the best overall bulk, good health and unyielding makes it great at soaking up damage. It sucks that it can't do much damage back, its offense is the worst type pierce (resisted a lot) and it does some of the lowest damage of all lv 4 units and has terrible speed there are also a ton of junk spears, so you might need to craft one. Still despite its flaws its so tanky that its worth using, it would love to do more damage though.

Techorat is the only unit I'm going to skip over. I've not used this unit a lot at all. Warlock and elvish assassin are my preferred 1 hit ko units and they have a lot of good staffs/bows to help them.I have not gone though the effort of fully upgrading this guy so idk its true potential.

Elder mage is one of the most reliable ranged attackers. Its simply strong, its fireballs hit like a truck, its hose can damage multiple foes and best of all its lighting (when upgraded) can never be resisted. Power him up with some items like ascent the ring of wisdom and you have an incredibly strong attacker. The elder mage is only good on attack since he is one of the weakest units defensibly. It's a unit worth defending though since it hits so hard and can be used on almost any squad.

Elvish assassin is my favorite unit. I think the reason I like it so much is that its cool but I also like it because it has the strongest bow. Like the elder mage this unit struggles in melee and defending but hits like a truck and has its own unique tools. Execute can be boosted by leadership to instantly kill most monsters and distant attack makes sure you can always do damage. Overall it's a realible archer that can get the job done if you can give it some cover.
One item stands out as insanely overpowered on this unit and that is the unrepenting. Its a bow that gives hint and run and distant attack along with boosting your damage. The assassin makes the best use of this weapon, since it does the most damage and can use the hint and run to not have to deal with its main flaw, weakness in melee; I can't think of a more perfect item for a unit. Every time I get that item I train up one of these guys, its just so strong.

Gryphon rider is the best scout. It flys, has a lot of movement points and can be upgraded to get pentrates with hit and run; this unit can search out the whole map for you. Hit and run is the main reason this unit is successful, your able to use it to move even faster or do some damage to help your team but without blocking the path for your main attackers. The damage on this guy is not great and as a scout you don't need more then one of this guy ether; the uprepenting bow also makes this unit's main strengh almost relevent. Scouts in general are not super great though but this gets the job done the best.

Elvish juggernaut is outclassed. Sure its one of of the best swordsmen, but the human sword master does more damage. The juggernot needs to use its other tools to stand out, but they are not super great. Regeneration is decent but with healer support is unessary. The bow makes this guy not completely helpless defending from ranged attackers and the stormforce is a good item for that slot, but its not going to good at attacking with ranged. Imo its better to just deal with the flaws of the overal superior swordsmaster then trying to use this guy or using a hybrad sword user like the nightprowler or shadowalker. I would fix this unti by getting rid of the regeneration and replacing it with something brand new nobody else has; maybe add whirlwind too.





That took a while, Hope this helps somebody.
I might talk more about the elvish assassin later, right now I think I got the best possible item compation on one of them but i'm not sure yet.
Edit I mixed up lich and nercomancer regarding legacy, fixed.

TLDR
Lich bad
nerco bad
blackguard ok
messenger good
champion op
champion bowman weak
Chaos rider weird
Deathlord super bad
Destroyer good.
Dragon rider ok
Duelist wizard good
Duke almost good
battlerager kind of good
Dwarf hero ok
Dwarf protector good
Elder mage good
Elvish assassin great
Elvish Gyphon ok
Juggernaut bad

User avatar
lhybrideur
Posts: 129
Joined: July 9th, 2019, 1:46 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by lhybrideur »

I have a dragon rider and an elder mage that just can't be killed.

Elder mage has really powerful magical ranged attacks (59 x 3 arcane, 36 x 6 fire, 28 x 5 ice) and with a powerful staff (27 x 5) with drain becomes nearly unkillable.

Dragon rider does massive damage with the spear (123 x 4) and can heals himself with the draining bites (36 x4 ). Same for distance : decent damages with the fire breath (25 x5 for me at the moment) and healing with shadow breath (18 x 4).

On the other hand, I have the same problem with the battlerager. He can kill bosses, but instadie when facing several units.

I don't find Scythemaster really interesting but it might be because of how I leveled them up.

For the record, I'm still playing 3.2.1 on 1.12 so my answer might be heavily outdated.

dabber
Posts: 384
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

shevegen wrote:
March 6th, 2020, 11:50 pm
- Elfalial or whatever his name, seems to have fairly ineffective ways to fight. Philip is
much better. I'd prefer if he has a good sneaky dagger attack and a good crossbow
hit or so, or perhaps sword + dagger. Right now his whirlwind attack seems so much
better than the rest that he has, if only due to poison alone. You can make him
better via items but ... he sort of is annoying. I'd prefer if he would be a bit more
effective, perhaps remove his attack possibilities to only 2 or 3 at max but make
them stronger.
You mean Efraim, the main character, right? I don't understand this at all. Efraim part 2 is truly a god who can slaughter almost everything in Inferno on his own.
I find Lethalia clearly weaker than Efraim, but still highly effective. I think a chunk of the difference is her need for both weapon damage and spell damage, while Efraim only needs weapon damage.

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