Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » October 13th, 2019, 6:05 pm

Personally I'd rather change stats or sprites than names in most cases, but changing descriptions is also fine when that's sufficient.
Aldarisvet wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 8:12 am
Ok, no problem, but then we have new southern line, in which lvl1 unit immediately wields two daggers, but to your surprise there is nothing that explains why southern nagas are even more advanced in the dual sword style.
I don't think this line suggests the southern nagas are more advanced in a dual sword style. To begin with, dual-wielding daggers is totally different from dual-wielding swords, so you can't count the level 1 Naga Slasher as an indication that the southern nagas are better at dual-sword style. That does leave the level 2 Naga Bladewhirler and the level 3 Naga Dervish. Both their swords are noticeably smaller than the Myrmidon though...
Aldarisvet wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 8:12 am
Nope, the description tells about archery whenever in the base frame of the unit you even cannot see that this naga has a bow equipped!
You have a point here, the naga should probably have a bow slung across its back, at least.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 4:59 am
You cannot bear both a middle shield and a glaive at the same time. A glaive demands using two hands and you cannot run fast with a middle shield.
The harriers wield spears, not glaives. Spear and shield is totally possible. The sprite is misleading though, I'll give you that – that does look more like a glaive than a spear.
Aldarisvet wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 9:14 pm
Still for me Rover line is obviously too heavy armored and armed to be real scouts. An escort for caravans - that is ok. But not rangers and explorers. Just look on human and elvish rangers, how they look like. A ranger wearing a helm and a chainmail (or whatever armor he has), really?
You have a point here, it doesn't make a lot of sense for a ranger (or a scout in general) to be heavily armoured. But I think that might just mean we need to change the sprite. If you look at the resistances, it doesn't really give a sense of being heavily armoured.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by ghype » October 14th, 2019, 8:14 pm

Aldarisvet wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 9:14 pm
Still for me Rover line is obviously too heavy armored and armed to be real scouts.

What exactly does it make you think it would be too armoured sprite-wise?
The sprite was created by Sleepwalker as he intended the unit to be and the rover unit was the least touched unit stats-wise from all the rework.

If rover was just fine then, why is it not anymore?

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Hejnewar » October 14th, 2019, 8:33 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
October 13th, 2019, 6:05 pm
Aldarisvet wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 9:14 pm
Still for me Rover line is obviously too heavy armored and armed to be real scouts. An escort for caravans - that is ok. But not rangers and explorers. Just look on human and elvish rangers, how they look like. A ranger wearing a helm and a chainmail (or whatever armor he has), really?
You have a point here, it doesn't make a lot of sense for a ranger (or a scout in general) to be heavily armoured. But I think that might just mean we need to change the sprite. If you look at the resistances, it doesn't really give a sense of being heavily armoured.
To be fair I never thought that this was metal, for me it always was scale armour made out of animal scales / bones. In comparison to iron one their armour would be at least twice as light. That would even fit thier current description I think.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » October 15th, 2019, 4:03 am

Scale armour is heavier than leather (being made usually from lots of overlapping metal plates – though indeed animal scales can be used as well), but I suppose it's not totally out-of-place for a ranger to wear it...
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 15th, 2019, 6:56 am

ghype wrote:
October 14th, 2019, 8:14 pm
Aldarisvet wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 9:14 pm
Still for me Rover line is obviously too heavy armored and armed to be real scouts.
What exactly does it make you think it would be too armoured sprite-wise?
The sprite was created by Sleepwalker as he intended the unit to be and the rover unit was the least touched unit stats-wise from all the rework.

If rover was just fine then, why is it not anymore?
To begin with, Steepwalker never created sprites of Rover, Explorer and Ranger.
He created sprites for
Jundi (Soldier) -> Muharib (Warrior) -> Batal (Champion)

http://units.wesnoth.org/1.12/mainline/ ... #Khalifate
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... di#p489975

As you see, nothing in the initial project was saying they are some scouts.
Again, just compare sprites of Elvish and Human Ranger and Dunefolk Ranger.

Muharibs were called heavy scouts in 1.12 description, however, but I would accent on the word 'heavy' here. This adjective somehow disappeared in 1.15.
__________
Muharib are often utilized as heavy scouts, no longer just probing the enemy but conducting raids on the supply lines or eliminating patrols. Often away from the main body of the army for long periods of time, Muharib have no issue pilfering these supplies, and so they tend to be more well-equipped than most.
__________

This 'heavy scout' passage in Muharib's description probably was a reason while the whole Jundi-Batal line became scouts (Explorers, Rangers) finally, but if you look at old Jundi and Batal descriptions, you would find nothing that would also add weight to that 'scout' appointment.

In 1.14 the names were changed, but descriptions were still suitable to sprites (describing these units as tough warriors). In 1.15 they became just scouts in descriptions. I especially do not like that new 1.15 description represents lvl3 unit of this line just as desert hunter. Somehow a sprite of Batal (Champion) now represents a hunter. I do not find this new role impressive for such lvl3 unit. But possibly that "Wyvern hunt" description (with minor editing) would work for current Harrier if he to be renamed to Ranger. Why not using bolas to tie wyvern legs? Sounds logical.

And now, given there is new 1.15 light infantry Skirmisher line which is obviously better fits for scouting, I am really perplexed, how former Batal (Champion) became a Ranger whenever there is a more agile Harrier unit. I will repeat that Harrier name does not fit to lvl3 Skirmisher because hawk is a predator and that Bedouin with bolas does not look dangerous (I would call him a Sparrow instead). It is Ranger who looks really dangerous, as a tough guy. I hope I explained finally. It is all about sprite's look fitting names and descriptions.

And yes, for me it is obvious that Explorer, for example, is wearing a chain mail skirt (of course made of metal). Looking on sprites, Explorer and Ranger (former Warrior and Champion) now are indeed looking most heavily armored compared to any other unit in the faction. But even someone wrongly suggests that it is not metal, but something different, even in this case Explorer and Ranger are armored heavier just because other units do not wearing anything similar (especially for legs). If you look carefully than you will see that units in the whole Soldier tree (all three forks) have no leg protection at all.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by ghype » October 15th, 2019, 11:37 am

Aldarisvet wrote:
October 15th, 2019, 6:56 am
To begin with, Steepwalker never created sprites of Rover, Explorer and Ranger.
I don't know how the Rover looked like initially but this was Sleepwalkers rework of the Rover in 2009, his ever contribution to the Khalifate.

Then in 2012, he came back and reworked the sprite to what it is known to be our Rover of today

Talking about only the lv1 sprites, the Rover base sprite never was armoured at all, it started only with the advancements. And If you said that there used to be a armoured-scout in the old Kahlifate, why cannot be the Explorer/Ranger the armoured-scout of Dunefolk?


Aldarisvet wrote:
October 15th, 2019, 6:56 am
As you see, nothing in the initial project was saying they are some scouts.
Well, it's 6mp led to believe that he is one.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 15th, 2019, 1:39 pm

ghype wrote:
October 15th, 2019, 11:37 am
Then in 2012[/url], he came back and reworked the sprite to what it is known to be our Rover of today
In 2012 there was no Rover, he was Jundi. There was no Explorer and no Ranger. So what this for?
Jundi means Soldier in Arabian.
There were common soldiers Jhundi and elite ones called Arifs.
ghype wrote:
October 15th, 2019, 11:37 am
Talking about only the lv1 sprites, the Rover base sprite never was armoured at all, it started only with the advancements. And If you said that there used to be a armoured-scout in the old Kahlifate, why cannot be the Explorer/Ranger the armoured-scout of Dunefolk?
Jundi line had 6 MP because there was obviously hard armored Arif in lvl1 with 5 MP. But advancement of these lines were illogical looking on sprites.

In 1.15 both Explorer and Ranger are now in fact most armored units looking on sprites. Some faults were changed for another ones.
Someone make a big mistake when renamed Batal (Champion) to Ranger, and the same about the whole line. However descriptions were still old and still suitable for sprites. In 1.15 it is all gone to fault.

Is this a description of Ranger?
______________
Batal are the elite of the Muharib, engaging in constant hit and run attacks against an enemy army. Nimble as a goat and strong as a ram, they prefer to coordinate multiple attacks at the same time, sending foes running from their arrows only to be cut down by their axes. Given their penchant for taking on only the most daring missions, Batal are often heroes to the common troopers, an image they do not try to dissuade.
______________

And now you asking, why these units in chain mail cant be scouts?
Well, you can add a tank into a faction and call it Explorer or Ranger, why not? Cant it explore?
The fact is that Ranger does not look like a ranger, it looks like a heavy assault unit (and it indeed was, if you read old description). It is Harrier who looks like a desert ranger.
Last edited by Aldarisvet on October 15th, 2019, 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by ghype » October 15th, 2019, 1:53 pm

It seems like most of your issue with the current state of Dunefolk come from earlier revisions made by Noy, the SpaceInvader and others.
Khalifate and Dunefolk were around for a long time and while you might have some valid points, problems such as these should have been expressed earlier.

we are in a very late stage of this, but it is not too late to change things. It seems that your issues could be fixed with a rework of some descriptions. I take you are a translator so you might be able to come up with some concepts for new descriptions that fix the issues with all the units you described earlier.

What we did was basically make a mainline faction fun to play, as it wasn't really fun to play until now.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 15th, 2019, 2:18 pm

ghype wrote:
October 15th, 2019, 1:53 pm
It seems like most of your issue with the current state of Dunefolk come from earlier revisions made by Noy, the SpaceInvader and others.
Khalifate and Dunefolk were around for a long time and while you might have some valid points, problems such as these should have been expressed earlier.

we are in a very late stage of this, but it is not too late to change things. It seems that your issues could be fixed with a rework of some descriptions. I take you are a translator so you might be able to come up with some concepts for new descriptions that fix the issues with all the units you described earlier.

What we did was basically make a mainline faction fun to play, as it wasn't really fun to play until now.
The issue arose when you took old units and their sprites, added new ones and redefined them all for new multiplayer purposes. That is good work.
But because you were so keen with that, you never payed attention to the big picture enough elsewise you would notice, for example, so obvious thing that you cannot give 9MP to Maradeur and left the same name for Windrider.
Whenever I, as translator, do not care about multiplayer, I care about the consistency of unit's lines, their names and descriptions. I care about the whole picture. As those who created Khalifate faction (I am not fan of that old khalifate faction, I just notice that they did very elaborate work with names and descriptions).
ghype wrote:
October 15th, 2019, 1:53 pm
I take you are a translator so you might be able to come up with some concepts for new descriptions that fix the issues with all the units you described earlier.
I can. I already suggested something. But before opening constructive discussion, the question is, as always, that it should be decided first that something must be changed. I was arguing that it must. If we can pass it, than we can discuss changes.
__________

I am not an English native so my suggestion may be not quite correct
How about
rover -> swashbuckler -> hotshot (or cutthroat)
for rover line, leaving lvl1 without changes. I see that line as the line of reckless warriors, as in old descriptions. They a wearing bucklers so swashbucklers looks as appropriate word. Even Rover word has a banditry tone, as I understand.

And for skirmisher line, it can be even less renames -
skirmisher -> strider -> ranger
Last edited by Aldarisvet on October 15th, 2019, 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by octalot » October 15th, 2019, 3:25 pm

In the Marauder's description, "dexterous" is the en_GB spelling and should be changed to "dextrous".

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » October 16th, 2019, 1:49 am

I could get behind skirmisher -> strider -> ranger. I don't like hotshot or cutthroat though.

I would also say that swiftrider and windrider should be changed to 9 MP while raider and marauder should be changed to 8 MP. This shouldn't have a huge impact on balance, right? After all, even level 2 units don't show up that often in multiplayer games, do they? Still, even if it does impact balance, I think coherence of theme is more important than balance.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by josteph » October 16th, 2019, 3:40 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
October 16th, 2019, 1:49 am
Still, even if it does impact balance, I think coherence of theme is more important than balance.
You might be on the minority on this one.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by ghype » October 16th, 2019, 7:57 am

after hearing all of this, the points you are making regarding the sprites and the look of the units are rather subjective.

The Rover lv ups wear something as armour, but that ain't iron or any other metal. As far as I know It could be either leather or bones/scales.
They even could be roc feathers which would only support the name and description of this unit.

As for the Swiftrider and Raider, the "swift" might as well refer to the archery of that unit, the elegancy and skill on how he shoots the arrows while riding a horse. Dunefolk are established to have skilled horse breeders with the Rework. They have horses that are strong brutes, perfect for caravans and cataphracts. They have pretty ones for the nobles and admiration or ones that are very "controllable " which is what the swiftriders nee .
They also have agile ones too, which are used be the raiders/marauders, which they need to quickly rush into enemy camps and set the tents and supply crates on fire at night. The fact that act as "better" scouts is just a side effect of them having the faster horses.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 16th, 2019, 9:19 am

ghype wrote:
October 16th, 2019, 7:57 am
after hearing all of this, the points you are making regarding the sprites and the look of the units are rather subjective.

The Rover lv ups wear something as armour, but that ain't iron or any other metal. As far as I know It could be either leather or bones/scales.
They even could be roc feathers which would only support the name and description of this unit.
That is old Sunderer. The horse is wearing a lot of metal chainmail armor.
http://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/ ... derer.html

Now this is new Cataphract. The horse here obviously is wearing a large leather armor.
http://units.wesnoth.org/master/mainlin ... hract.html

So, you catched up the difference?
There were lot of Dunefolk units wearing chain mail in 1.12/1.14
Old skirmisher -
http://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/ ... isher.html
Old Soldier
http://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/ ... ldier.html

So I do exactly know how the metal chainmail armor looks in Wesnoth.
If you do not want to change anything, that is the position, of course. But please do not say that black is white, I will not believe.

Same about Swiftrider and Windrider. I cannot buy your explanations. You say "the 'swift' might as well refer to the archery of that unit"? Then call it Swiftshooter. And Windshooter, for lvl3.

I also want to specify what exactly I do not like in the new description of Dune Spearmaster
http://units.wesnoth.org/master/mainlin ... aster.html

In descriptions of Wesnoth units from lvl1 to highest there is some system. It is that the higher is the level, the more the unit is skilled in some quality. the more he is great in something and praised in it by other soldiers. That description of Dune Spearmaster is something like a parody on that system, humiliating that lvl3 unit. The only thing Spearmasters stand out among others, is that they accidentally survived. Moreover, it is a shame that they survived. Moreover, it is directly mentioned that they called "spearmasters" not because they are actual masters of spear, but because they "manage to return from the usually suicidal defense". I found that passage as quite unbelievable. If they are accidentally survived martyrs, they would be called "Lucky guys", something like that. But in no way "Spearmasters". What I clearly see is that in new descriptions the author let his imagination run without limitation by logic and understanding that there is must be some harmonious system. I am sorry to say this, but it is what I see.

Ok, I am off with this.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Hejnewar » October 16th, 2019, 11:15 am

Aldarisvet wrote:
October 16th, 2019, 9:19 am
ghype wrote:
October 16th, 2019, 7:57 am
after hearing all of this, the points you are making regarding the sprites and the look of the units are rather subjective.

The Rover lv ups wear something as armour, but that ain't iron or any other metal. As far as I know It could be either leather or bones/scales.
They even could be roc feathers which would only support the name and description of this unit.
That is old Sunderer. The horse is wearing a lot of metal chainmail armor.
http://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/ ... derer.html

Now this is new Cataphract. The horse here obviously is wearing a large leather armor.
http://units.wesnoth.org/master/mainlin ... hract.html

So, you catched up the difference?
There were lot of Dunefolk units wearing chain mail in 1.12/1.14
Old skirmisher -
http://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/ ... isher.html
Old Soldier
http://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/ ... ldier.html

So I do exactly know how the metal chainmail armor looks in Wesnoth.
If you do not want to change anything, that is the position, of course. But please do not say that black is white, I will not believe.
Yeah in your comparison I can clearly see that Ranger is wearing something other than chainmali. It's actually very close to new Cataphract. I am also convinced that if given a choice they would wear animal scale armour much more often than chainmali. Different thermal conductivity will make this type of armour much better when working in desert environment. They also must be light, especially when taken from for example Wyvern.

Regarding balance of Rider lvlups. I'm able to change them if necessary without much problem but I would rather put my time into something else.

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