Increase multiplayer numbers?

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Pentarctagon
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by Pentarctagon »

lhybrideur wrote: July 27th, 2019, 1:44 pm A bit more general, but putting the tournament messages in updates would be simplified if wesnoth had a in-game update mechanism, like at least a pop-up with "a new version of wesnoth is available on the website", and at best a mean to checks for updates and update wesnoth from inside the game menu.
I don't say it is easy to program but I think it would be a really nice possible feature of future versions of Wesnoth.
This would also help increase the number on people on the MP server, as most people would then be playing the same version of wesnoth.
The Steam version already allows for automatic updates, actually. Adding info and-or a link to the MOTD is also a server-side change that doesn't need players to update their game.
octalot wrote: July 26th, 2019, 10:21 pm Please could we have a forum section for organising tournaments and similar things that need people to work out mutually agreeable times to have a game? The current tournament thread is in "Development > Multiplayer Development", but a non-developer is more likely to look in the "General" or "General > User's Forum" sections.
That is a fair point, actually.
bproberts wrote: July 26th, 2019, 8:22 pm Could there be a sticky somewhere that listed current leagues/tournaments, and possibly a link to the ladder for those interested? It could be linked in game (the title screen help messages, somewhere in the general help, and the MP welcome message) and out (Steam page, Discord, and the wiki.)It wouldn't require much effort to maintain, it's not like we have 10 tournaments a day, AFAIK all we have going right now is EarthCake's. Once the thread is up, the link would be fine unless we changed forums entirely, and whoever organized tournaments could simply PM whoever was managing the thread, or post their event as a reply. It'd also encourage players to be on the forums for something other than MP registration, which would help get them more involved in the community.
Said link to the Ladder already exists, in fact: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=34903

Having a Users > Tournaments subforum would accomplish the same purpose as a stickied thread, I think. Anything in the Wesnoth client would require an updated version though.
bproberts wrote: July 26th, 2019, 10:32 pm It would make a useful Discord/IRC channel as well. A number of games I play use them to great effect.
You mean for people involved in tournaments?
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by bproberts »

Said link to the Ladder already exists, in fact: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=34903
No, that's a single link buried in a pile of other links, in an unrelated topic. I'm talking about a single topic, stickied somewhere (preferably linked in several places) visible, that has up to date links to whatever tournaments, leagues, etc. are currently active. Something where someone that wants to play organized MP can go to quickly and easily find the relevant information, rather than digging through a half dozen sub forums or hoping they get a lucky hit on the search function.
Having a Users > Tournaments subforum would accomplish the same purpose as a stickied thread, I think.
The purpose of the sticky is to have an easily accessible, curated, list of events. If you create (and bury) an events subforum somewhere, players will miss it, not sign up, events will fail, community will not grow, etc. A single topic/page should exist that lists what events are currently open vs closed but active, categorize them, and provide a link/brief description. Again, the goal it to provide an easy to use, highly visible, single point for players to find information.
You mean for people involved in tournaments?
Tournament/League rooms could be used, though I think it makes more sense to let tournament organizers create/operate those, rather than putting the burden on project staff. I was thinking something more along the lines of a "Looking To Play" room, where people could post when they wanted a game (Hey, anybody up for a round?) or what/when they were looking for (I'm available most days from 12-14 UST. I'm a medium skill player looking for 1v1s or 2v2s and I mostly play Drakes. Wesnoth Username is Firebat. PM me to set something up!)
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by Pentarctagon »

bproberts wrote: July 27th, 2019, 4:40 pm
Having a Users > Tournaments subforum would accomplish the same purpose as a stickied thread, I think.
The purpose of the sticky is to have an easily accessible, curated, list of events. If you create (and bury) an events subforum somewhere, players will miss it, not sign up, events will fail, community will not grow, etc. A single topic/page should exist that lists what events are currently open vs closed but active, categorize them, and provide a link/brief description. Again, the goal it to provide an easy to use, highly visible, single point for players to find information.
It would be visible in the same way the iOS Support forum is under Technical Support. So it would be visible from the main forum page, and at the very top of the page, which sounds more visible than a sticky thread someone would need to go into a particular forum to be able to see, actually.
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth »

Pentarctagon wrote: July 27th, 2019, 5:21 pm
bproberts wrote: July 27th, 2019, 4:40 pm
Having a Users > Tournaments subforum would accomplish the same purpose as a stickied thread, I think.
The purpose of the sticky is to have an easily accessible, curated, list of events. If you create (and bury) an events subforum somewhere, players will miss it, not sign up, events will fail, community will not grow, etc. A single topic/page should exist that lists what events are currently open vs closed but active, categorize them, and provide a link/brief description. Again, the goal it to provide an easy to use, highly visible, single point for players to find information.
It would be visible in the same way the iOS Support forum is under Technical Support. So it would be visible from the main forum page, and at the very top of the page, which sounds more visible than a sticky thread someone would need to go into a particular forum to be able to see, actually.
The more visibility the better, no? Subforums are a little buried away, they don't really grab the eye, whereas normal forums do.
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by bproberts »

It would be visible in the same way the iOS Support forum is under Technical Support. So it would be visible from the main forum page, and at the very top of the page, which sounds more visible than a sticky thread someone would need to go into a particular forum to be able to see, actually.
The iOS Support forum is not what anyone would call high visibility. Nothing that is on the forums is high visibility. This kind of thing needs to be in the game, preferably in multiple places. If possible, it should be one of the main menu tips (can we put clickable links in those?) It should be in the in game help file. It should be in the server message. Outside of game, it should be somewhere easy to find on the website, not buried in a pile of 10 other links/pages. It should be pinned on the Discord Server. It should be pinned on the IRC server. It should be on the Subreddit, the Facebook, and any other social media accounts the game has. It should be everywhere that people go to look for things related to Battle For Wesnoth, not a tiny link, under a dozen other tiny links, on a forum that the majority of the game's players will look at between 0 and 1 times.

An events sub forum is great, there should probably be an entire multiplayer category in the forums, and that would be a part of it. However, it does not fulfill the purpose of the hypothetical sticky. Again, the point of the sticky is to have an easy place that one or more involved members of the community can regularly update with what events are/aren't happening soon. If it's more convenient, it could be a page on the website or wiki.

You've admitted yourself that these forums are not active. No one wants to sort through a dozen subforums and thousands of topics to try and find out if there's a tournament this weekend, a game night next week that they should try to hop on for, or a league that they can join next season. They want to go "Tournaments?" and have a list handed to them.
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by Pentarctagon »

So there could be a sub-forum with a thread per tournament, and each thread's title gets updated with [Completed] or the like when it's over. I don't see why you think people would be willing to scroll through a bunch of posts on a thread to see what the most recent tournament(s) are, but wouldn't be willing to click a Tournaments sub-forum link on the forum's main page.
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by bproberts »

No one is scrolling through posts. There is a SINGLE post with a list that looks something like this:

Code: Select all

Open Tournaments:
X: Brief Description: Link
Y: Brief Description: Link

Open Leagues:
A: Brief Description: Link
B: Brief Description: Link

Upcoming Events:
Q: Brief Description: Link
O: Brief Description: Link

Closed Tournaments:
R: Brief Description: Link
S: Brief Description: Link
People will not go to a subforum because they are not easily visible/accessible. People will not scroll through a list of topics trying to find what they want, because it isn't user friendly. People want to click/read as little as possible to quickly/directly get the information they need.

Here's the steps for finding a tournament under my method:

1.Click the "Current Events" button on the title screen, server message, discord, etc.
2. Read the part of the list you're interested in, which is sorted and contains only current/relevant information.
3. Click the one you want.

Done, three steps, minimal clutter.

By comparison, your solution:

1.Click the "Current Events" button on the title screen, server message, discord, etc.
2. Read the list. Use search to try and sort leagues, tournaments, and events separately.
3. Find one you like. Be sad because it's marked closed.
4. Find another one you like. Click on it, be sad because it's over but didn't get marked closed.
5. Be frustrated.

Stop trying to make things more complicated for users.
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by Pentarctagon »

If Wesnoth becomes popular enough for that to be a problem, then that could be an option. Otherwise, it's silly to have such a page when it would currently be almost entirely blank.
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by bproberts »

Pentarctagon wrote: July 27th, 2019, 7:54 pm If Wesnoth becomes popular enough for that to be a problem, then that could be an option. Otherwise, it's silly to have such a page when it would currently be almost entirely blank.
The same could be said of adding a sub-forum. There is zero cost to adding such a page. I could do it in less than 5 minutes. If a single player finds a game because of it, it will have been worthwhile. If it leads to another player starting a tournament, because now they see that there is support to organize/advertize it, it will have been worthwhile. Wesnoth's number one problem right now is inaccessibility. If there is an easy step that can be taken to improve it, one that doesn't require changing a single line of code, why not work to fix it?
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by Pentarctagon »

Because, at least for right now, I think a sub-forum is the way to go.
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by bproberts »

Wesnoth development in a nutshell. And you guys complain about negativity and the size of the dev team. This is by far the most unfriendly open source project I've ever seen. You chase off anyone who tried to help, and then wonder why no one sticks around.
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by Pentarctagon »

I'm not going to do something I think is incorrect. If you think that counts as being negative and unfriendly, then I don't know what to tell you.
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by sergey »

bproberts wrote: July 26th, 2019, 4:46 pm I have spent years volunteering or working at game shops, clubs, etc. running events, teaching people games and what not.
Hi bproberts :) Could you please provide more details about those projects and your role there.
bproberts wrote: July 28th, 2019, 1:28 am This is by far the most unfriendly open source project I've ever seen.
What is the most friendly open source community in your opinion?
bproberts wrote: July 28th, 2019, 1:28 am You chase off anyone who tried to help, and then wonder why no one sticks around.
If stranger repeatedly demands you to do something that you don't agree with, are you friendly to them?
Last edited by sergey on July 28th, 2019, 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by otzenpunk »

bproberts wrote: July 27th, 2019, 8:42 pm
Pentarctagon wrote: July 27th, 2019, 7:54 pm If Wesnoth becomes popular enough for that to be a problem, then that could be an option. Otherwise, it's silly to have such a page when it would currently be almost entirely blank.
The same could be said of adding a sub-forum. There is zero cost to adding such a page. I could do it in less than 5 minutes. If a single player finds a game because of it, it will have been worthwhile. If it leads to another player starting a tournament, because now they see that there is support to organize/advertize it, it will have been worthwhile. Wesnoth's number one problem right now is inaccessibility. If there is an easy step that can be taken to improve it, one that doesn't require changing a single line of code, why not work to fix it?
Ok, let's sort this out. Currently, there is no such sub-forum, and it's questionable, if there's even enough activity to justify one. But a sticky thread had to be maintained by someone, because an outdated sticky thread is worse than none at all. Pentarctagon (and probably the other forum admins and mods as well) is not interested to take the burden of doing this regularly. So how about this:

bproberts creates such a thread, right here in the "Users" section, and promises to do the maintaining. All the mods have to do is to sticky it, and it stays sticky as long as it's actively maintained. Depending on what happens there in the future, there may be a whole sub-forum created for this stuff, or not. The same applies to discord channel, server message, etc.
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Re: Increase multiplayer numbers?

Post by Tad_Carlucci »

Here's how things get done in almost any open project:

If it's important enough to you, create a discussion thread. If it's not that important, you have no right to complain that nobody else wants to take on the idea/project. Sure, it's nice to have an idea which you can't do and find someone who loves it and will run with it, but it is nothing but hubris to complain that nobody likes your idea which you're not that commmited to, yourself.

If the thread is popular enough, people will refer to it and the forum maintainers will see that and make it sticky. Hopefully, they'll also un-sticky it if it loses popularity and becomes stale and outdated.

If the idea/thread garners enough interest, and needs some programming, maybe one of the existing team members will decide to do some programming for it. More likely, though, the team members will already have pet projects of their own, and not have the time, much less inclination, to take up your idea. Hopefilly, eventually, one of the followers of your thread will decide to take up the idea and do the programming.

Whoever does the actual work, though, well: maybe they'll talk to you about it, maybe they won't. If they don't, and you don't like the way it's going, there is nothing much you can do about it. They *are* doing all the heavy lifting. You can comment on the thread. Maybe enough others will agree and change the direction of the development. Or maybe they won't.

Eventually, maybe someone else comes along and decides to do the programming in a different direction, forking the idea, taking the good points from the earlier work and the good ideas from the discussion, making an improved version which surpasses the earlier.

Take a look at the history of StarOffice/OpenOffice/LibreOffice. Take a look at the history of HTTPd/Apache.

If you look deep enough, in almost every project, you'll find examples of people who came along, posted an idea, then complained that nobody took up their idea. We have a well-entrenched tradition on handling them: we point out how Things Get Done, and we get back to what else we were doing. The ideas which get done are the ones which interested the person doing them.
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