Main Factions Balance

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sergey
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by sergey » June 15th, 2019, 2:05 pm

EarthCake wrote:
June 15th, 2019, 9:49 am
Well I think it already is -6, rather than -8 +2.
It is for the "healthy" trait, not for the "hardy" proposed by Cackfiend. If you will look into the healing logic, you will understand that it is rather hardcoded and not very customizable. E.g. resting and poisoning values are (virtually) hardcoded. Resting can contribute to HP of poisoned unit, but healers and regeneration can't (unpoisoning has higher priority). I am trying to achieve the result which not only works as expected in terms of HP, but also in UI. In older versions of the game the "healthy" trait was changed several times, and that was also done in a hardcode, non customizable way.
Cackfiend wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 6:56 pm
Soliton wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 5:54 pm
Cackfiend wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 4:41 pm
Many changes were made to mainline units that the competitive players did not like. Cavalry movement, Orc Archer buff, Footpad nerf, etc.
Did those competitive players voice their opinion when those changes were discussed? (Here for example: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32430&start=105#p484916)
many many times, over many threads, different forums, in game chat, and pms
I am pretty sure that developers are happy with the current balance of the Default Era. For the majority of the players the balance is good enough. I think we should not complain about that and just use a modified era if we want. Who knows, maybe developers will decide to improve the Default Era by using expertise of the ladder community, maybe not. We should invert the way of the balance discussion. If someone tries hard to sell me something, I am starting to think that there is something wrong with his product.

There are only few exceptions to what I will say next. If you think that you spent a lot of time analyzing the balance, be sure that Cackfiend spent even more time. There is no only one correct way to improve the balance. If you dislike some of his ideas, ask yourself first - "what if he actually cares about the balance more than I do?". When I wrote him, he was inactive on the forums for 6 years. One should be truly passionate about something if he returns after so long absence and jumps into the discussion like it was yesterday.

Let's admit it. How many of us thought that additional trait will decrease chances of receiving one of the old traits? How many of us have enough expertise to recognize the difference? All that makes me think that the best thing we can do here is to test his proposals, and test them many times before making a conclusion.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.

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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Soliton » June 18th, 2019, 7:06 pm

sergey wrote:
June 15th, 2019, 2:05 pm
Cackfiend wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 6:56 pm
Soliton wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 5:54 pm
Cackfiend wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 4:41 pm
Many changes were made to mainline units that the competitive players did not like. Cavalry movement, Orc Archer buff, Footpad nerf, etc.
Did those competitive players voice their opinion when those changes were discussed? (Here for example: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32430&start=105#p484916)
many many times, over many threads, different forums, in game chat, and pms
I am pretty sure that developers are happy with the current balance of the Default Era. For the majority of the players the balance is good enough. I think we should not complain about that and just use a modified era if we want. Who knows, maybe developers will decide to improve the Default Era by using expertise of the ladder community, maybe not. We should invert the way of the balance discussion. If someone tries hard to sell me something, I am starting to think that there is something wrong with his product.

There are only few exceptions to what I will say next. If you think that you spent a lot of time analyzing the balance, be sure that Cackfiend spent even more time. There is no only one correct way to improve the balance. If you dislike some of his ideas, ask yourself first - "what if he actually cares about the balance more than I do?". When I wrote him, he was inactive on the forums for 6 years. One should be truly passionate about something if he returns after so long absence and jumps into the discussion like it was yesterday.

Let's admit it. How many of us thought that additional trait will decrease chances of receiving one of the old traits? How many of us have enough expertise to recognize the difference? All that makes me think that the best thing we can do here is to test his proposals, and test them many times before making a conclusion.
You make it sound like the developers are some secret club that made the current balance in isolation. I can assure you there have been many discussions (some with Cackfiend) with many different expert players. I've linked to one such discussion on the forum. More happened on the MP server and IRC. You can also be sure that we were aware that adding a trait decreases the chances of getting the other ones. I'd also say that the developers are not the only ones fairly fond of the current balance as evidenced by this very thread.

That said I'm happy to see serious effort put into improving the balance and the aim of the ladder era should be to become the next default era IMO. I've mentioned what I think of the proposed changes and I'd prefer if the more dubious changes would be tested later but how the balancing is done is of course up to those putting in the effort.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott

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sergey
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by sergey » June 19th, 2019, 12:22 pm

Soliton wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 7:06 pm
You make it sound like the developers are some secret club that made the current balance in isolation. I can assure you there have been many discussions (some with Cackfiend) with many different expert players. I've linked to one such discussion on the forum.
I didn't intend it to sound like that :) You and Cackfiend sounded like there is a discontent between you :P I wanted to say about current state of the balance and what we should do next, instead of recalling old misunderstandings.
Soliton wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 7:06 pm
You can also be sure that we were aware that adding a trait decreases the chances of getting the other ones.
I had no doubt that developers understand that. However, I doubt that majority of players think about that. Also, I think that majority of developers doesn't clearly recognize the balance difference it makes. Only top players can do that in my opinion.
Soliton wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 7:06 pm
I'd also say that the developers are not the only ones fairly fond of the current balance as evidenced by this very thread.
I didn't say that only developers are fond with the balance. Let me rephrase what I said :) Developers achieved a very good level of balance, which makes me think that they are happy about it.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.

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Cackfiend
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Cackfiend » June 19th, 2019, 2:16 pm

sergey wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 12:22 pm
Soliton wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 7:06 pm
You make it sound like the developers are some secret club that made the current balance in isolation. I can assure you there have been many discussions (some with Cackfiend) with many different expert players. I've linked to one such discussion on the forum.
I didn't intend it to sound like that :) You and Cackfiend sounded like there is a discontent between you :P I wanted to say about current state of the balance and what we should do next, instead of recalling old misunderstandings.
I don't believe there is any discontent between Soliton and me. I don't think I've ever even had an argument with him
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by radarsu » June 19th, 2019, 3:09 pm

I haven't followed a topic for a while, I came back to it and read through all the posts.

1. Nerfing orc archer:
Some people suggested nerfing orc archer damage. That's a big NO. He is good, maybe even too good, but only thing that can be nerfed is his exp, hp or melee damage. Any other changes would destroy him. Actually I believe making him require some more exp to lvl up would be great, as quite often he levels up after 2 kills and is quickly solo-carrying the orc game.

2.Nerfing HI:
No, HI actually needs a boost.

3. Dwarf traits:
Reducing damage received from poison by dwarves is bad idea. Dwarves are already huge hp-pool and high resistance units, poison is often only way to deal with them - and usually poisoning 2 of them means you gonna lose assasin/ghoul, so it's not a cheap cost. Making them more invulnerable to poison would simply make poison a bad weapon against dwarves.

Also, I believe healthy trait is quite fine and nice in general, but the problem with dwarves seem to be - they are too strong on small maps and too slow for large maps, so they fall off significantly. Removing healthy trait will increase their chance to have "fast" trait so I believe it's a very good change that will make them more balanced towards all kinds of map.

Other matter is - we should balance out all traits so that they're equally viable (it's bad for gameplay if getting poor traits can affect match significantly). Currently I think "fast" trait should reduce HP by -4% instead of -5%, but I prefer small maps so I might be wrong with this one.
Let's admit it. How many of us thought that additional trait will decrease chances of receiving one of the old traits? How many of us have enough expertise to recognize the difference? All that makes me think that the best thing we can do here is to test his proposals, and test them many times before making a conclusion.
That's exactly the first thing I thought about when I saw posts about adding additional trait. People who can't see such relations simply don't have enough expertise in "balancing games" and should think five times before posting any opinions.

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sergey
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by sergey » June 23rd, 2019, 7:41 am

I have abandoned the statistical analysis of the ladder games because of its complexity and because I am not sure it will give accurate results. I will write technical details under the spoiler. Regarding results accuracy. First post in this thread contains statistics from http://www.wesnothlife.ru/ russian-speaking community of the Wesnoth. I had a talk with one of the top players of wesnothlife and he said that the main reason why undead have lower win ratio is because they are harder to play, not because they are imbalanced.
technical challenges to perform the analysis:
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.

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Cackfiend
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Cackfiend » June 23rd, 2019, 4:36 pm

sergey wrote:
June 23rd, 2019, 7:41 am
I had a talk with one of the top players of wesnothlife and he said that the main reason why undead have lower win ratio is because they are harder to play, not because they are imbalanced.
I think the main reason UD have a lower win ratio is because of how unbalanced the matchup is vs Knalgans in Default Era
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Hardwood » June 24th, 2019, 10:09 pm

Cackfiend wrote:
June 23rd, 2019, 4:36 pm
I think the main reason UD have a lower win ratio is because of how unbalanced the matchup is vs Knalgans in Default Era
What is this claim based on? Such a claim should not be made without strong proof to substantiate it; the burden of proof lies with he who claims such imbalances exist. A large sample size of statistical data featuring strong play is required to demonstrate such a perceived imbalance. Said data should be further linked to detailed in-depth analysis. I have previously requested statistics and analysis in the Wesnoth Ladder Discord server, and I would like to repeat this request once more, if any conclusions are to be drawn about game balance.

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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Cackfiend » June 25th, 2019, 1:11 pm

What is this claim based on?

Years and years of playing the game at a high level as well as speaking to others that played at a high level as well. This is not a statement that requires such in-depth analysis and proof. It is common knowledge among the best players in the game.
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Hejnewar
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Hejnewar » June 25th, 2019, 1:57 pm

Cackfiend wrote:
June 25th, 2019, 1:11 pm
What is this claim based on?
Years and years of playing the game at a high level as well as speaking to others that played at a high level as well. This is not a statement that requires such in-depth analysis and proof. It is common knowledge among the best players in the game.
I'm speechless.

First talking about wr and then not even showing %? Statements like that can't be justyfied by just saying "it's common knowladge". Of course it requires proof otherwise how normal people can know if it isn't some kind of collusion or something (I'm not accusing anyone about anything this is just an example of what people might think) among the "best" should they just take everything that is said by "best" without question? That blows my mind.

People need proof of everything and even if they find something small or unimportant that appears to be wrong they might not only question it but outright think that everything is bad. This is normal. To add to that I don't think anyone have seen these "best" players opinions documented in any shape or form. That alone might be questioned and answering such questions is important because it helps your PR greatly.

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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Cackfiend » June 25th, 2019, 2:47 pm

Hejnewar wrote:
June 25th, 2019, 1:57 pm
Cackfiend wrote:
June 25th, 2019, 1:11 pm
What is this claim based on?
Years and years of playing the game at a high level as well as speaking to others that played at a high level as well. This is not a statement that requires such in-depth analysis and proof. It is common knowledge among the best players in the game.
I'm speechless.

First talking about wr and then not even showing %? Statements like that can't be justyfied by just saying "it's common knowladge". Of course it requires proof otherwise how normal people can know if it isn't some kind of collusion or something (I'm not accusing anyone about anything this is just an example of what people might think) among the "best" should they just take everything that is said by "best" without question? That blows my mind.

People need proof of everything and even if they find something small or unimportant that appears to be wrong they might not only question it but outright think that everything is bad. This is normal. To add to that I don't think anyone have seen these "best" players opinions documented in any shape or form. That alone might be questioned and answering such questions is important because it helps your PR greatly.


Here are a few documented 'proof' quotes from ladder council members and great players of wesnoth at its peak just from a little research on the ladder forums. Honestly it is like trying to convince someone that the sky is blue and they want you to bend over backwards to prove it.

@oook wrote: Footpad - I like this solution, it's probably the most elegant
solution, as in it is a known problem
@theblacksword wrote:UD still have big problems in this matchup
@plk wrote:This is an interssting idea for sure. Maybe it would rly balance the UD-dwarve matchup finaly. Will be unfamiliar to see footpads without stones.
@theblacksword wrote:The idea of waiting for 1.9 to come out when we all know there are problems in the loy-orc and UD-dwarf matchup is silly IMO.
id put several of my own quotes but its clear my opinion means little to you



also, here is an old replay for Hardwood if you want to watch it. It made me decide that Footpad needed to be changed to Slashing
http://wesnoth.gamingladder.info/gamede ... %3A54%3A46
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I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Hejnewar » June 25th, 2019, 3:34 pm

I think you have trouble with understanding. All of that are opinions not facts and I want to see facts. Opinions might be important but only if you have something to back it up.

Funny: These are not even good convincing opinions but some random one liners without context.

One replay means nothing usually.

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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Cackfiend » June 25th, 2019, 8:09 pm

Hejnewar wrote:
June 25th, 2019, 3:34 pm
I think you have trouble with understanding. All of that are opinions not facts and I want to see facts. Opinions might be important but only if you have something to back it up.

Funny: These are not even good convincing opinions but some random one liners without context.

One replay means nothing usually.

I dont owe you anything.

I could go over a long list of what you have trouble understanding, but id rather take it to pms if you want to talk more as this is getting rather personal.
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I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Hardwood » June 25th, 2019, 10:07 pm

Cackfiend wrote:
June 25th, 2019, 1:11 pm
Years and years of playing the game at a high level as well as speaking to others that played at a high level as well. This is not a statement that requires such in-depth analysis and proof. It is common knowledge among the best players in the game.
Where was a consensus reached? Rather than one player's recollection of such discussions, records of the discussions are needed.
Cackfiend wrote:
June 25th, 2019, 2:47 pm
Here are a few documented 'proof' quotes from ladder council members and great players of wesnoth at its peak just from a little research on the ladder forums. Honestly it is like trying to convince someone that the sky is blue and they want you to bend over backwards to prove it.

@oook wrote: Footpad - I like this solution, it's probably the most elegant
solution, as in it is a known problem
@theblacksword wrote:UD still have big problems in this matchup
@plk wrote:This is an interssting idea for sure. Maybe it would rly balance the UD-dwarve matchup finaly. Will be unfamiliar to see footpads without stones.
@theblacksword wrote:The idea of waiting for 1.9 to come out when we all know there are problems in the loy-orc and UD-dwarf matchup is silly IMO.
id put several of my own quotes but its clear my opinion means little to you



also, here is an old replay for Hardwood if you want to watch it. It made me decide that Footpad needed to be changed to Slashing
http://wesnoth.gamingladder.info/gamede ... %3A54%3A46
Quotes without adequate context are of little value in this discussion; again, where was a consensus reached, if at all? What did these discussions consist of? If something is to be proven at all, opinions alone are insufficient; facts are needed. Arguments must be supported by data if they are to hold water at all.

The single datum that you have linked in the form of a replay is insufficient to demonstrate anything beyond your own poor play. There is no analysis given, nor any attempt at analysis from you. As a show of good faith, I will provide some.

1. You attacked and failed to accomplish anything meaningful. Then, as you were retreating, footpads got free attacks on your skeletons on flat (40%) for 3 turns. The skeletons got worn down so that when it came to the actual engagement, you were already at a heavy disadvantage. The footpad counterattack devastated your army.
2. Fallenstar Lake favors defensive play, and it can also favor Knalgans. By attacking and failing, you exposed your skeletons to get counterattacked by footpads, and because of how slow they were to get back to your side, by the time they got there they were already heavily damaged.
3. You did not employ ghosts to shield your skeletons on the retreat, which is what you needed to use them for. This made your retreat even worse and you took more damage than you should have.
4. Turn 13 was your last chance to attack, and you failed to take it. Because of point 3, it was probably better to attack at turn 13 because you had a high number of adepts (5) to attack with. The skeletons that were supposed to cover them were already getting worn down; time was running out. Without cover, adepts get destroyed by ulfs so that chance was probably better than trying to retreat.
5. You later took an engagement in the north against footpads on flat, at day, with damaged skeletons. At this point you were already losing, but perhaps you could have somehow tried to not keep your skeletons standing on flat, already damaged, fighting full health footpads.

Your play in this game reflected a lack of foresight and a lack of understanding of how to play the matchup from the Undead side. You recruited an offensive unit composition, failed to attack, failed to shield your retreat, and subsequently lost to the counterattack. In no way does this replay demonstrate the necessity of a change to footpad melee damage type; if anything it was their ranged attacks that destroyed your skeletons.

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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Hejnewar » June 25th, 2019, 10:29 pm

Cackfiend wrote:
June 25th, 2019, 8:09 pm
I dont owe you anything.

I could go over a long list of what you have trouble understanding, but id rather take it to pms if you want to talk more as this is getting rather personal.
Yeah, you don't owe me anything. But community is something different. You can do with your era whatever you want. But if these changes were to make it to default i can prove that they are bad, even if there is merit behind some of them. And I care about balance of this game way too much just to let that go.

Well I've seen it couple of times already as soon as something starts to look bad in public it should be explained in pm.

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