Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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Cackfiend
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Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Cackfiend »

http://wesnoth.gamingladder.info/ - To register to play the Ladder (https compatibility coming soon)
http://laddercouncil.proboards.com/ - Ladder players may register to discuss the ladder on our Ladder Council forums
https://discord.gg/Ud3sKzf - Please join our Ladder Discord if you are a Ladder player

Greetings! I am excited to announce that the Ladder Era is now available on the add-on server. All credit goes to sergey for taking the time to code it! The initial v0.x.x versions will be the test versions until the first full version v1.0.0 is released. I encourage all Ladder plays and anyone interested in joining the Ladder to download the add-on and start testing it out. Any version of the Ladder Era is valid for Ladder games, however it is not a requirement until v1.0.0. Playtesting is vital to make any more changes to the Ladder Era.

A little history on the Ladder Era: First conceived 6+ years ago by the Ladder Council (top players at the time led by Wesnoth Developer Doc Patterson) in order to balance Wesnoth for competitive 1v1 play. Most of these changes were discussed on the Ladder council forums, but the Era never got developed until now. One of the great things about the Ladder Era is that it doesn't have to worry about Single Player Campaigns or Lore which means we are free to make any balance changes we want.

Now onto what changes the Ladder Era brings:

* Provides a map picker for selecting random maps from a pool of approved maps.
* Adds the ability to customize your own random pool of maps
* Adds modified versions of maps:
Den of Onis
Spoiler:
Hamlets
Spoiler:
Silverhead Crossing
Spoiler:
The Freelands
Spoiler:
Changes compared to the Default Era:

Leaders
- Leaders with 6 movement points receive slow trait (similar to how 4 mp leaders receive quick trait, which is inherited from the Default Era)
- Red Mage, White Mage and Trapper removed from the leaders pool
- Removed leaders from the manual selection pool that are not present in the random selection pool
Spoiler:
Drakes
- Drake Fighter: 30% defense in shallow water (from 20%)
Spoiler:
Knalgan Alliance
- Dwarves have 3 traits, hardy trait (always rest heal if poisoned) is mandatory, healthy trait is removed.
- Dwarvish Ulfserker: -20% arcane resistance (from 10%)
- Poacher: can have dextrous trait
- Footpad: melee blade 5-2 (from bludgeoning 4-2)
Spoiler:


Loyalists
- Spearman: ranged attack 5-1 (from 6-1)
- Cavalryman: 7 movement points (from 8mp)
Spoiler:
Northerners
- Orcish Archer: ranged pierce attack 5-3 (from 6-3)
Spoiler:

Rebels
- Elvish Shaman: no dextrous trait
- Wose: 0% cold resistance (from 10%)
- Merman Hunter: +2 hitpoints and 60% defense in deep water (from 50%)
Spoiler:
Undead
- Vampire bat: no intelligent trait
- Ghost: 19 gold (from 20gp)
Spoiler:
Please refrain from debating the balancing changes in this thread. I have created individual threads for each balance change on the Ladder Forums for discussion. Please only post there if you have tested the changes and have an informed opinion.

All of these changes are subject to change before the full release version of the Ladder Era.
Last edited by Cackfiend on June 21st, 2019, 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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sergey
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by sergey »

I would like to provide additional information about the "Ladder Era" add-on.

First of all, Ladder Era can't be used on all the maps. If you try to select Ladder Era and a disallowed map you will get a message saying that your setup is incompatible. List of allowed maps:
1v1 default maps:
1v1 modified maps:
2v2 default maps:
1v1 map pickers:
The easiest way to filter modified 1v1 maps and map pickers is to type "ladder" above the map selection area.

Secondly, I would like to tell about the map pickers. Map pickers are used to randomly choose a map from a pool of allowed maps. Thus, you and your opponent don't know in advance what map will be used. Map pickers work well only for online games with 2 human players. Description of the map pickers provides information about the map pool they use, click on a map picker to see the description. Additionally, you can exclude some maps from the pool under the Custom Options tab. At least 2 maps must be present in the pool or you will get an error during map launch. Also note that map pool settings are not reset if you reload the game.

Post bug reports to this thread or PM me. Have fun :)
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.

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radarsu
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by radarsu »

I agree with all the changes except for adding hardy trait. Maybe it gives dwarves some advantage in orc matchup, but it gives undead even harder kick in a butt in dwarves vs undead matchup, which is already unfavorable. I find it unnecessary complication. Just remove healthy trait instead - simple and neat.

The second change I find unnecessary is poacher with dexterous trait. I find him decent even without it and I think it's against the lore for other units than elves to have dexterous trait. If he needs a buff - just give him 1 hp more. Same thing goes for a shaman.

The last thing I'd like to mention - undead's are still gonna be behind in that era. Skeletons and ghouls are still going to be expensive, low hp and "high exp required for lvl up" units. They need a little more love. :P

P.S. 5-3 orcish archer is pretty weak choice even when he is cheap unit and very easy to lvl up. I'd prefer just giving him -2 hp or increasing lvl up cost by a little (or both: -1 hp and +2 exp to lvl up or sth like that) instead of decreasing his damage. Otherwise people might just recruit more grunts&trolls instead and unit might be left unpopular (just like loyalist archer).

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josteph
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by josteph »

radarsu wrote:
July 3rd, 2019, 3:35 pm
The second change I find unnecessary is poacher with dexterous trait. I find him decent even without it and I think it's against the lore for other units than elves to have dexterous trait. If he needs a buff - just give him 1 hp more. Same thing goes for a shaman.
I don't think there's lore about dexterous specifically: lore doesn't usually deal with gameplay concepts such as traits. There is lore that elves are excellent archers, though, and the Elvish Sharpshooter deals more base damage than any comparable unit (at dusk/dawn).

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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Cackfiend »

josteph wrote:
July 3rd, 2019, 4:33 pm
radarsu wrote:
July 3rd, 2019, 3:35 pm
The second change I find unnecessary is poacher with dexterous trait. I find him decent even without it and I think it's against the lore for other units than elves to have dexterous trait. If he needs a buff - just give him 1 hp more. Same thing goes for a shaman.
I don't think there's lore about dexterous specifically: lore doesn't usually deal with gameplay concepts such as traits. There is lore that elves are excellent archers, though, and the Elvish Sharpshooter deals more base damage than any comparable unit (at dusk/dawn).
Clearly some of these poachers have some elven ancestry ;)
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Cackfiend »

radarsu wrote:
July 3rd, 2019, 3:35 pm
I agree with all the changes except for adding hardy trait. Maybe it gives dwarves some advantage in orc matchup, but it gives undead even harder kick in a butt in dwarves vs undead matchup, which is already unfavorable. I find it unnecessary complication. Just remove healthy trait instead - simple and neat.

The second change I find unnecessary is poacher with dexterous trait. I find him decent even without it and I think it's against the lore for other units than elves to have dexterous trait. If he needs a buff - just give him 1 hp more. Same thing goes for a shaman.

The last thing I'd like to mention - undead's are still gonna be behind in that era. Skeletons and ghouls are still going to be expensive, low hp and "high exp required for lvl up" units. They need a little more love. :P

P.S. 5-3 orcish archer is pretty weak choice even when he is cheap unit and very easy to lvl up. I'd prefer just giving him -2 hp or increasing lvl up cost by a little (or both: -1 hp and +2 exp to lvl up or sth like that) instead of decreasing his damage. Otherwise people might just recruit more grunts&trolls instead and unit might be left unpopular (just like loyalist archer).
I appreciate your input. If you'd like to have some discussion about the Ladder Era then please play with it and post your experiences on the Ladder Forum (requires a ladder account)
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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josteph
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by josteph »

Cackfiend wrote:
July 3rd, 2019, 8:33 pm
Clearly some of these poachers have some elven ancestry ;)
https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob ... fg#L26-L41

LeadFox
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by LeadFox »

all i gotta say is this is freaking awesome

we all knew that this game could use some balancing, and now that it's been done i feel like there's a new wesnoth to explore. very exciting

DRAKES 30% IN WATER GONNA BE SO FUN

Baltese_Windragon
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Baltese_Windragon »

Nice job with the era, I definitely think it is more balanced.

One change I would recommend is improving the heavy infantry unit. Compared to its counterparts (wose, troll) it is SIGNIFICANTLY worse, and I very rarely use them.

Compared to the wose they cost 1 gold less, but have much worse movement, damage, health, no ambush, and no regeneration.
Compared to the troll they cost 6 gold more, but have: worse movement, worse cover on hills, no use of mountains, no regeneration, more vulnerabilities

A possible balancing would be: make the heavy infantry cost 18 gold, and make movement on hills cost 2 movement. Alternatively, we could also give all heavy infantry the "fearless" trait in addition to two other traits, the way the dwarves all get "hardy". What do you guys think?

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sergey
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by sergey »

I will post a feedback summary that the Ladder Era received from competitive players. I may missed something, however it is pretty accurate.

Leaders change received many positive feedbacks.

Drake Fighter change had only one positive feedback IIRC.

Spearman change received positive feedbacks.
7mp cavalry received negative feedbacks.
It was also proposed by several players to reduce Heavy Infantry cost from 19 to 18 gold.

Orcish Archer received negative feedbacks.

Wose - many positive feedbacks.
Merman Hunter - few positive feedbacks.
Elvish Shaman - no feedback.

Vampire bat few positive feedbacks IIRC.
Ghost many positive feedbacks.

And the Knalgan Alliance
hardy trait - generally negative feedback, however it seems like increasing chance of quick trait is a good idea.
Dwarvish Ulfserker: -20% arcane resistance (from 10%) is very significant nerf. Perhaps -10% or 0% resistance will be better.
Poacher: can have dextrous trait. Was said to be strange, I haven't heard any balance related feedback.
Footpad: melee blade 5-2 (from impact 4-2). Is good for Undead matchup, however it negatively affects Northerners balance (assassin is more vulnerable to blade) and Loyalists balance (Heavy Infantry has huge blade resistance comparing to impact).
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.

Fosprey
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Fosprey »

Is there a way to even get ladder games? no matter the time of day never see anyone opening ladder games and if i open even if i wait na hour nobody joines, completly unlike a few years ago.

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ForPeace
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by ForPeace »

Clearly, the ladder playerbase has shrunk, so you might just be opening games when no ladder player is on the server. Nevertheless, 19 ladder games have been played in the last week, which you can check at the ladder website
ForPeace (ladder) | sxpg (lichess) | sxpg (codeforces)
Jeżeli jesteś polskim graczem, dołącz do wesnoth.com.pl

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Krogen
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Krogen »

There are 24 ranked players right now, which might not seem too many. But the low point was roughly a year ago, with 2 or 3 active members for months. I'd say compared to that it's not so terrible now.
"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." - Tywin Lannister

dwarftough
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by dwarftough »

I can't understand why Ladder Era is restricted to a fixed pool of maps. I might want to play with Ladder units on my custom map, why should it be prohibited?

Yomar
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Yomar »

Was the HI infantry enhanced to increase his utility?

DO Loyalist cavalry have still only 7 MP?
That was a bad change in my opinion, now unlike every other faction, Loyalist don't have an unit with at least 8 MP, speed and scouting is very important in this game.

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