Elf Inconsistency

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Gweddeoran
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Elf Inconsistency

Post by Gweddeoran »

In TRoW, Lord Elsomithir is an Elvish Marshal. In LoW, which happens a while after this campaign, he is demoted to an Elvish Hero without 'Lord' as a title. Further, the Council of Elves has glaring inconsistencies when one compares its composition from TRoW to LoW. It can't be that so many of them died between the two campaigns.
Perhaps we could change the name of the Elvish Hero to something else. Also, it turns out Elsomithir is still a part of the Council in LoW, but now uses the Elvish Lord default portrait instead of the one he had exclusively for himself in TRoW.
Similarly, Uraderedia's portrait is not used when he is met in HttT.
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Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Iris »

gweddeoran wrote: May 6th, 2019, 2:35 am Similarly, Uraderedia's portrait is not used when he is met in HttT.
Back in the day when LoW was originally written (think 2005), we hadn’t formally defined the elves’ lifespan to be limited to 250-300 years, so it’s extremely likely that the Uradredia that appears in LoW was intended to be the same person who shows up in HttT’s elven council scenario. However, since HttT takes place much far later (about 498 years later I believe) than when he shows up in LoW, there is no way for him to be the same elf. I remember that back when LoW was added to mainline I suggested to use the same portrait and it was shot down for this reason — it was precisely around that time that the elvish lifespan was finally set in stone.

So it really boils down to whether we can expect players to not mind the fact that there can be multiple people called Steve, or just change one of the Uradredias’ name for their convenience.
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Gweddeoran
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Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Gweddeoran »

Maybe we could change the me since it might confuse players.
What about the Elsomithir inconsistencies?
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Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by josteph »

shadowm wrote: May 6th, 2019, 2:46 am Back in the day when LoW was originally written (think 2005), we hadn’t formally defined the elves’ lifespan to be limited to 250-300 years, so it’s extremely likely that the Uradredia that appears in LoW was intended to be the same person who shows up in HttT’s elven council scenario. However, since HttT takes place much far later (about 498 years later I believe) than when he shows up in LoW, there is no way for him to be the same elf.
Doesn't that also apply to Kalenz? https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob ... fg#L19-L22
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Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Iris »

josteph wrote: May 6th, 2019, 4:05 pm Doesn't that also apply to Kalenz? https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob ... fg#L19-L22
If you played LoW you’d know why Kalenz is an exception. :P
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Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

There's no need to come up with different names for Elsomithir or Uradredias, as it could be an indication that they are descended from the council members of TRoW, but it would be simpler than trying to indicate in other ways that they are not the same person.
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Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Iris »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote: May 10th, 2019, 11:55 am There's no need to come up with different names for Elsomithir or Uradredias, as it could be an indication that they are descended from the council members of TRoW, but it would be simpler than trying to indicate in other ways that they are not the same person.
Uh.

LoW begins 20 years after TRoW, so any appearances by El’Isomithir early on are most likely supposed to be the same character, therefore he should be using the same portrait he uses in TRoW. Uradredia is not present in TRoW.
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Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

So is the lack of Uradredia in TRoW the problem then? Anyway I meant Uradredia in HTTT since you mentioned they also appear there.

It did seem like the original poster was proposing renaming Elsomithir in LoW though...
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Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Iris »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote: May 11th, 2019, 1:02 pm So is the lack of Uradredia in TRoW the problem then? Anyway I meant Uradredia in HTTT since you mentioned they also appear there.
He doesn’t need to be in TRoW. The issue is that there’s characters with his name both in LoW and in HttT despite there being a massive time gap between them.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: May 11th, 2019, 1:02 pm It did seem like the original poster was proposing renaming Elsomithir in LoW though...
The name is El’Isomithir. There’s no need to rename him, he just needs to use the correct portrait.
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Gweddeoran
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Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Gweddeoran »

What about his unit type- he's Marshal in TRoW and a Hero in LoW. Why not make him a Champion in both?
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Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Why champion? Why not marshal in both?
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Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Gweddeoran »

Play LoW, his ally in scenario 3 is Galtrid, a Captain. Secondly, later in the campaign, another Marshal is introduced to the Kalian, Eradion. The point of Elsomithir's presence was to give the player two different leaders, Galtrid, the leader sort, and Elsomithir, the warrior sort. Both could take turns recruiting while the other fights,gives leadership or both.
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Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

But it doesn't really make sense for El'Isomithir to change from a marshal to a champion, does it? I suppose lore-wise the difference is narrower than it is in mechanics, but still...
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Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by sub2pewds »

Sorry to revive this topic, but there is yet another problem with Lord El'Isomithir, in LoW alone. He joins Kalenz on the battlefield in Tath, which implies that he was one of the elves that dissented with the Ka'lian. Later, however, he condemns Kalenz's decision to aid the humans. While this isn't necessarily incompatible, it would be preferable if some sort of reason were given why he dissented (e.g. he was only there because Galtrid persuaded him, etc.).
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