Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

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EarthCake
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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by EarthCake » May 3rd, 2019, 5:45 pm

Konrad2 wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:04 pm
As someone who has played the scenario, I think it's doable.
Yes, it is. I played on nightmare, but that would come in handy if player is less experienced (for lower difficulty levels). You can always put villages on map and on nightmare you can make that AI has it from start.

When you enter wolf description, under 'advances to' says "base units", but it should be unit (I don't know if you coded it, but I think you did), and also base units=Wolf doesn't lead to base unit Wolf. (Again, I don't know if it is intended)

In "The Competition", is it defeat condition if Grolo kills more mermans than player does? If yes, should be listed as defeat condition.

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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by Konrad2 » May 3rd, 2019, 7:40 pm

EarthCake wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 5:45 pm
Yes, it is. I played on nightmare, but that would come in handy if player is less experienced (for lower difficulty levels). You can always put villages on map and on nightmare you can make that AI has it from start.
It stands to reason that on lower difficulty levels the scenario is easier anyway. Not to mention that it might very well make nightmare too hard.
It has also been pointed out that this is not a beginner campaign and is difficult by design.

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sergey
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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by sergey » May 3rd, 2019, 7:55 pm

EarthCake wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 5:45 pm
Konrad2 wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:04 pm
As someone who has played the scenario, I think it's doable.
Yes, it is. I played on nightmare, but that would come in handy if player is less experienced (for lower difficulty levels). You can always put villages on map and on nightmare you can make that AI has it from start.
Konrad2 also played on Nightmare. After watching his replay I don't want to make that scenario easier, since it would be too easy for so experienced players.
EarthCake wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 5:45 pm
When you enter wolf description, under 'advances to' says "base units", but it should be unit (I don't know if you coded it, but I think you did), and also base units=Wolf doesn't lead to base unit Wolf. (Again, I don't know if it is intended)
Yes, wolves in this campaign are not the mainline wolves. They have custom ability. Also they have slightly different attack in terms of number of hits & damage comparing to mainline wolves. As a result, ability bonus will be different depending on the wolf level (high level wolves have more hits, each hit is boosted by the ability). I used the base_unit key to code those wolves. I just checked and everything is shown as expected on my computer. However, I do understand that it may confuse. On the other hand, the base_unit link in the description may be used by players to compare the unit with the base one and find out differences. I am not sure what is better - to remove it or leave as is. If you are sure that it is displayed wrong on your computer, could you please send the screenshots? I will take a look, it may be a bug.
EarthCake wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 5:45 pm
In "The Competition", is it defeat condition if Grolo kills more mermans than player does? If yes, should be listed as defeat condition.
If Grolo defeated more merfolk, but there are still some merfolk on the map it is not the defeat condition. The score is compared only when all merfolk are defeated. I already listed two victory conditions "Defeat all enemy units" and "Defeat more enemies than Grolo's tribe". Strictly saying, every defeat condition may be listed in a negative form under the victory conditions and vice versa. E.g. "defeat condition turns run out" -> "victory condition finish scenario before turns run out", "defeat condition death of the main character" -> "victory condition main character must survive", etc. But they are not duplicated, since it will just confuse players. And I don't think that I should duplicate the "defeat more merfolk" condition for the both competitors.

Did you noticed that your score and Grolo's score are shown under the victory conditions, but Grolo's score is shown as red. Maybe that is what confused you? I understand that it is not the default way of displaying objectives, but it was the best I came up with. We may try to improve it.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare

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EarthCake
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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by EarthCake » May 3rd, 2019, 8:13 pm

Here is screenshot:
Снимак екрана направљен 2019-05-03 22-08-22.png
You see, should there be link that leads to mainline wolf, or it is there just for info?

About Grolo, I think his AI should use [ai] caution=bigger than now [/ai], I will later post replay, but he got all his man butchered while killing only 6 mermans.
Yea, OK for conditions.

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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by EarthCake » May 3rd, 2019, 8:28 pm

CbaN-The Wolf's Lair replay.gz
(33.17 KiB) Downloaded 76 times
CbaN-The Competition replay.gz
(50.91 KiB) Downloaded 76 times

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sergey
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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by sergey » May 3rd, 2019, 8:31 pm

Regarding unit's description - for me base unit is a link. Perhaps it is not a link in case if that unit was not yet observed in the game. This topic has answers https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=46841

Regarding Grolo's caution. I tried and it was actually worse. Yes, they were a little bit more cautious, but at the end killed even less merfolks. You see, there is a lot of water and AI is not so clever when planning its moves (as I know, it is not planning at all, just go and fight). Generally I agree that it would be nice to make Grolo fight better, I am not sure I can do that using the AI settings. I found this scenario hard to balance since there are several different sides and Grolo is your ally, so if he is stronger he will beat your common enemy harder. Maybe I will give him more gold. I will think more about it.
Last edited by sergey on May 4th, 2019, 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare

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EarthCake
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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by EarthCake » May 3rd, 2019, 9:43 pm

Yes, I have tried with all units in help, and the link works well. Maybe that is because I reinstalled Wesnoth few days ago, so it didn't keep me help.

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sergey
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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by sergey » May 4th, 2019, 11:58 am

EarthCake, you replays are very helpful, great thanks! I will definitely try to improve the "Competition" scenario. Merfolks should not go to the coast, they should stay in the water. I don't know how I missed the fact that the AI will do that.

Update.
I rebalanced the "Competition" scenario and uploaded the newest version to the server. First of all, I tweaked merfolk AI. Waiting until they jump out of water on the flatland should not be a viable strategy anymore. Secondly, I tweaked Grolo's AI and give him more gold. Though, he still loses a lot of units and gives XP to merfolk, as a result they level up and his life becomes even more complicated. I decided to increase max XP for the western merfolk (which attack Grolo) and decrease max XP for the eastern merfolk (which attack Erurag). Not so fair competition as before, but I hope more challenging and fun.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare

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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by Konrad2 » May 4th, 2019, 10:50 pm

Stuff.
Attachments
CbaN-The Competition replay.gz
(46.05 KiB) Downloaded 82 times
CbaN-The Tribute replay.gz
(26.51 KiB) Downloaded 76 times
CbaN-The Nightmare replay.gz
(35.25 KiB) Downloaded 75 times
CbaN-The Wolf's Lair replay.gz
(30.39 KiB) Downloaded 75 times

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sergey
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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by sergey » May 5th, 2019, 8:34 am

Thanks for the stuff :)

Konrad2, EarthCake - I have a few questions about the "Nightmare" scenario.
- Have you tried to assasinate leaders earlier? Do you think it is posible on the Nightmare difficulty?
- I am thinking about tweaking AI to not attack the Spectre from bad terrain, so they won't give him a lot of HP because of drains. What do you think, should I try? Or that will make the scenario too hard?
- Do you think there are too many enemies and player is forced to use save-loads? I would like to minimize that.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare

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EarthCake
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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by EarthCake » May 5th, 2019, 9:22 am

I have used only two loads because of leader death.

I believe you should not tweak AI, and I didn't tried to assasinate leaders because if you try to assasinate with starting units, you could kill only one leader of you are lucky, and then orcs will swarm you. And if you try with some supporting ghosts, you leave army without ghosts, and then they die, which means you are again at start, just without around 150 gold.

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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by Konrad2 » May 5th, 2019, 9:24 am

- Have you tried to assasinate leaders earlier? Do you think it is possible on the Nightmare difficulty?
No, I didn't try and no, I don't think I have the means to try.
1) The enemy units are grouping around the leader, so assassination doesn't seem to be an option.
1a) I'm too far away to attack him before he recruits enough units to be shielded (counting the units he start with as well).
2) At the beginning you have daylight, so your units deal reduced damage. (And your Shadow is visible.)
3) Even if you started with +30% for chaotic, I'd like to have ~4 Shadows to assassinate the Orcish leader somewhat reliable, since he is on a castle hex and has a lot if hp.
5) My only fast units (except my loyal ones and my leader) are ghosts, not exactly a reliable choice for assassination.
5a) If I tried using my leader I wouldn't have time to recruit and then I'd be destroyed in the enemy base without any units to take the the enemies down.
- I am thinking about tweaking AI to not attack the Spectre from bad terrain, so they won't give him a lot of HP because of drains. What do you think, should I try? Or will that make the scenario too hard?
I think it might (it depends on how exactly it works out but I think it would either make no difference or make it way harder) make the scenario too hard since you can't lure the enemy out of their base, which means the 'bad' terrain choices are very limited anyway. For me this scenario was about taking down any and all Archers and use my leader to take down the remaining resistance.
- Do you think there are too many enemies and player is forced to use save-loads? I would like to minimize that.
No, I don't think so. At least there was no need for me to reload.

EDIT:
Escaping the Nightmare
Mine Rails over a Chasm give 0% defense, just saying. (30,3)

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sergey
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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by sergey » May 5th, 2019, 4:14 pm

Then I will not even try to tweak the AI regarding the Spectre, since it may drastically affect the difficulty. In the initial version of that scenario there were 3 loyal Wraiths. Than I replaced a Wraith with a Spectre to test how it works, and wow this guy is really dangerous. At some point I realized that it is a key unit in the battle, and I was ok with that. I am not sure if that is possible to reproduce on the higher difficulties, however I was able to assasinate Hushnak with Spectre and several his friends. My main forces were fighting in the east, while a small group was fighting near the western walls. Probably because it was a small group, AI sent a few units to attack them. At some moment it was dark enough and majority of computer units were located at the east and not covering their leader from the west, so I quickly moved my assasins and killed the leader, generally thanks to the Spectre.

I really like the way that AI controls Vadasha (the healer). It is a Healer Support Micro AI by mattsc.

Regarding the "Mine Rails over a Chasm give 0% defense" in the "Escaping the Nightmare". Just in case - it is default characteristic of the mine rails - it doesn't affect defense, only movement. It is intentionally possible to exploit that hex, you know there is a crazy berserk who attacks no matter what. I wanted to portray a partially destroyed cave after an earthquake that occurred when you entered the cave. It is supposed that rubble hexes were a cave walls before the earthquake, there were no chasm hexes (e.g. there was a route from rails at [14,6] to the south, but now it is broken). And I like the idea of the rails over a chasm, keep calm and don't look down :)

In case if someone is interested how I balanced the latest part of that scenario - enemies have more / less HP depending on the difficulty level.

Update.
I changed 3rd scenario "The Nightmare" to be easier and 4th "The Wolf's Lair" to be a little bit harder. In 7th scenario "Escaping The Nightmare" water is flooding 1.5 times faster on Hard and Nightmare difficulties.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare

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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by white_haired_uncle » May 9th, 2019, 2:31 am

Move the wraith to 7.19 to block Bart. It may not be the smartest thing in the world, but the dang AI is always getting in MY way and a little payback feels nice. You'll see an onscreen error at the beginning of the next turn. Even more if you're stupid and forget to move out of the way and your wraith isn't killed.
Attachments
CbaN-The Nightmare-Auto-Save6.gz
(48.4 KiB) Downloaded 70 times
wesnoth-20190508-193542-1684.log
(6.86 KiB) Downloaded 75 times
WARNING: I suck at BFW, I'm usually barely paying attention, and I often like to try stupid things just to see what happens. Then I cheat. Watching my replays is known to the State of California to cause permanent mental injury.

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Re: Captured by a Nightmare: SP Campaign for 1.14

Post by white_haired_uncle » May 9th, 2019, 9:34 pm

Have the orcish crossbowman pick up the poison. Only one of his crossbows gets poison. Not sure if this was intended.
Spoiler:

Also, in Wolf's Lair:

all survived > all surviving
as much wolves > as many wolves
Objectives(?) say poacher gets 8GP bounty. I swear I saw a thug get a bounty as well (not positive, I have animations maxed out, but I'm pretty sure).
Attachments
CbaN-The Backdoor-Auto-Save22.gz
(116.8 KiB) Downloaded 77 times
WARNING: I suck at BFW, I'm usually barely paying attention, and I often like to try stupid things just to see what happens. Then I cheat. Watching my replays is known to the State of California to cause permanent mental injury.

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