Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

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Krogen
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Krogen » April 2nd, 2019, 4:10 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 1st, 2019, 12:58 pm
Finally, do keep in mind that we're discussing marksman for a level 3 unit, and the unit name is "Bladesmaster". This in no way implies that the Dunefolk have better swordsmen as a whole – the bladesmasters are not representative of the average skill of a Dunefolk swordsman. They are the masters, the best of the Dunefolk swordsmen. So it's not strange for them to surpass the average elvish swordsman.
Then we should compare the unit with other masters from their respective factions, for example Royal Guards or Elvish Masters, or even Dwarvish lords even though they do not use swords. Are then these units not really "masters"?

Right, its not exactly true that no human can surpass an elf, but I think it is true (and it is also the case in most fantasy worlds, not only in Wesnoth) that the best elvish swordsmen have unsurpassed skill with swords, although maybe they aren't physically strongest. The best of the best elvish swordsmen should surpass the best of the best human swordsmen, even if we assume their superior dexterity is a result of training, elves just use too many cheat codes.

I have talked with a few people about it and it seems that even strong campaign units level 3 or 4 don't get any melee marksman special or a similiar ability (unless its magical). At this point it is not only a matter of lore but also consistency with default era, mainline campaigns or even non-mainline campaigns.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by ghype » April 2nd, 2019, 4:53 pm

Krogen wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 4:10 pm
Are then these units not really "masters"?
Just because you are a master in something, it doesn't automatically has to be Marksmanship.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by The_Gnat » April 2nd, 2019, 11:23 pm

ghype wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 4:53 pm
Just because you are a master in something, it doesn't automatically has to be Marksmanship.
Clearly. :) But the question is not whether it HAS to be marksman but if we WANT it to be marksman. What do other people think about this? Any preference for the Soldier advancements having or not having marksman?
nemaara wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 1:29 pm
Note that I also might not have figured out how to use the Shieldbreakers properly yet, so I really wasn't sure if they were UP or not (like I also have the same feeling about fencers, they're just not all around as good as spearmen, so it could just be me).
Yes as name has said the Spearmen do deal more damage in most circumstances than Fencers. But overall speed and skirmishing ability, when used properly, can easily account for the lesser damage. :)

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 3rd, 2019, 12:20 am

I'd say my preference is for marksman at L3 only.

Krogen's arguments make sense, but I don't feel that giving them marksman, in itself, automatically makes them a better swordsman than an elvish marshal or champion. You'd need to consider all of their stats together to decide on that.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by The_Gnat » April 3rd, 2019, 12:24 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 12:20 am
I'd say my preference is for marksman at L3 only.

Krogen's arguments make sense, but I don't feel that giving them marksman, in itself, automatically makes them a better swordsman than an elvish marshal or champion. You'd need to consider all of their stats together to decide on that.
I support that. Also I agree that stats as a whole determine skill level. :eng: Just because the Orcish Slayer doesn't deal very much melee damage doesn't mean he is a bad assassin.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Pentarctagon » April 3rd, 2019, 12:50 am

In general it would probably be best to consider Marksman in a unit flavor/balancing context rather than an intentional statement of skill. Otherwise the Loyalist's Master Bowman should definitely have the Marksman special too :P
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 3rd, 2019, 4:49 am

For the record, I totally wouldn't object to the master bowman receiving the special. :P
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by ghype » April 3rd, 2019, 11:36 am




Here are a summary of all the updated stats of specific units and proposal for some unit designs where it is not clear yet how the final situation gonna look like



Soldier:
  • xp from 47 to 43

Swordsman:
Our thread sparked a discussion wether marksman should be introduced back or not. We came up with a couple of set ups on how this will work. All you gotta do is to choose which one is preferred the most.

Setup (1)
  • Swordsman Lv2 drops shield and becomes 14-2 marksman
  • the Spearguard would gain the shield and would be able to fight close to every unit default
  • this way every advancement of Soldier has a clear role: marksman, leadership, dmg
  • Swordsman would obviously be weaker against flat unit but would maintain marksman, but if you want to go missing you simply go with Spearguard.
  • if any of the unit would use a shield (no matter if offensively or defensively), then it would be the Spearguard
  • this set up would also include a visual update where the Swordsman path would receive smaller shields whereas the Spearguard's shields would increase (which would fit thematically more than the way it currently is)


Setup (2)
  • Swordsman lv2 stays as it is without marksman, but Shield Breaker gains a 2nd advancement with marksman
  • lore-wise the unit could have learned that from fighting heavily armoured scorpions
  • advancement would look like this: Lv1 skirmish + first-strike; Lv2/3 skirmish + first-strike + slow; Lv2/3 marksman + skirmish


Setup (3)
  • Swordsman lv2 becomes 15-2 without marksman
  • maintains shield 11-2 + shock special
  • "Shock":
    Shock special on shield – Shock works only on offense and when the weapon with shock is used it causes the enemy unit to retaliate with 1 less strikes than normally.

    It adds flavour to the swordsman line and could also be useful in defense if reducing the damage taken on attack is important. It is stronger vs some factions that have less strikes on their units, like orcs, but this likely shouldn’t matter a lot. The damage the shield with shock deals is significantly less than the sword, this is the tradeoff when using it. It also will be pretty good at countering skeletons, or even heavy infantry.


Setup (4)
  • we go with Celtic's suggestion to have only lv3 Bladesmaster and lv4 Warmaster gain marksman
  • we would expand this idea by saying that if they get a blade with marskman (which is weaker then without marksman) it should also have a 2nd blade attack with more damage and no marksman.
  • this way marksman now is an option.



Dune Captain
  • lv2 dmg from 7-4 to 9-3
  • lv3 dmg from 7-5 to 9-4

Spearguard & Spearmaster
  • no longer has a ranged attack


Herbalist Line
  • According to your comments we adjusted the special/ability distribution on this unit line to avoid RIPLD violations. The current setup for the line looks like this.
    • Herbalist, heals+4 & regen+4
    • Apothecary, heals+8 & regen+4
    • Apothecary Lv3, heals+8 & regen+4 & cure
    • Alchemist, poison, regen+8
    Furthermore, "Self-Heal" no longer is called that way but "regenrates +4"

Cataphrakt



We were debating which would be the most elegant way to introduce CTP back as that was unit most requested. It makes sense as it is also a big part of DF Lore.
  • we figured to keep the Sunderer as he currently is (blade+bow), just instead of a blade it is wielding a mace (referencing the old Sunderer)
  • the old CTP now is introduced as a 2nd advancement to the Sunderer lv2 and keeps the name
  • it drops the ranged bow for a melee spear + charge special
  • the current CTP will be named Sunderer Lv3 for now and continues with the mace/bow combo to not violate RIPLD
  • this way we are smoothly introducing the CTP on lv3 which started from the lv1 Rider
  • stats could look like this:
    • Lv2 Sunderer, 9-3m 4-3r
    • Lv3 Sunderer, 11-4m 7-3r
    • Lv3 Cataphrakt, 14-3m 13-2m (charge)
  • this would only enforce the concept of DF being very versatile with their horses


Raider & Marauder
  • as discussed, we though that it would interesting that the Raider path deals some sort of fire dmg
  • both units now deal fire (torch) dmg instead of impact (mace)
  • we decided against fire arrows as the melee variant is less balance breaking.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 4th, 2019, 12:45 pm

I don't think I like setup 2 or 3 regarding the swordsman. I think I'll stick to supporting setup 4, though setup 1 doesn't sound too bad either.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Xalzar » April 4th, 2019, 1:40 pm

I fully support giving the Spearguard/Spearmaster the shield, this way they become very distinct from any other spearman in the game. Also, it fits their theme of being warden of the city gates or escorts to important people (shieldbashing people who come too close to their protectee).

I also like the idea of giving a second attack with marksman to the Swordsman line, if done well.
It is important for the attack to not be redundant thought. Right now the unit has a blade melee with 2 attacks; I we are going to add another blade melee attack (with marksman) I think we have two options:
-have it be one single strike and more powerful (which I prefer; think of it as a less frustrating, melee Thunderer);
-be it quite less damaging but with more attacks (in that case maybe the weapon should be a dagger :hmm: ).
The first option would be better to finish off wounded units with high defense, the latter would be only useful to garantee hits on high defense targets (have I already said I prefer the first one?).

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Caladbolg » April 4th, 2019, 9:39 pm

For Swordsman, I strongly prefer option 1, due to reasons mentioned by Xalzar.
For Cataphract, I think having a split at lvl3 with such a drastic weapon change is really odd. Lvl2 unit wielding a bow suggests that some time has been put in honing that skill. Just dropping it completely, and suddenly gaining a spear on lvl3 is strange. Not sure what would be better though.
I'm fine with other changes.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by The_Gnat » April 5th, 2019, 6:07 am

Caladbolg wrote:
April 4th, 2019, 9:39 pm
For Swordsman, I strongly prefer option 1, due to reasons mentioned by Xalzar.
I believe Xalzar was supporting option 4, (because he mentioned supporting adding a second attack).

I personally support option 4 because it adds marksman into the line but as a secondary option which means that the unit isn't weighted towards killing elusive units while under powered against normal units. As I may have mentioned before, and as you will see from reading the section about the issues with marksman (in the design flaw section) there are A LOT of reasons not to add in marskman to the earlier levels.

A marksman attack, by nature, will be weaker than a normal attack, but it will have marksman which in many circumstances (50% + defence) will be useful. However, against units who are on 40% defence or units who have chronically poor defence (such as drakes), the marksman special is useless, and therefore the blademaster's attack becomes worse than a normal sword (such as that of the warlord).

By instead adding marksman on a second attack, instead of adding it to the only sword, it gives the player the choice, thereby not nerfing the blademaster against poor defence units while making it OP against elusive units. Adding a nerf to the blademaster really doesn't seem like a good way to make this unit more unique and fun to play.
Xalzar wrote:
April 4th, 2019, 1:40 pm
I also like the idea of giving a second attack with marksman to the Swordsman line, if done well.
It is important for the attack to not be redundant thought. Right now the unit has a blade melee with 2 attacks; I we are going to add another blade melee attack (with marksman) I think we have two options:
-have it be one single strike and more powerful (which I prefer; think of it as a less frustrating, melee Thunderer);
-be it quite less damaging but with more attacks (in that case maybe the weapon should be a dagger :hmm: ).
The first option would be better to finish off wounded units with high defense, the latter would be only useful to guarantee hits on high defense targets (have I already said I prefer the first one?).
I agree that having a unique attack is important. I would avoid a single-strike attack for the many aforementioned reasons by which the Piercer was removed from the faction :eng: but I think that adding an attack with more strikes and marksman would be a good addition.

I also would propose the marksman is only added to lvl 3, but it does not matter too significantly. :)
Caladbolg wrote:
April 4th, 2019, 9:39 pm
For Cataphract, I think having a split at lvl3 with such a drastic weapon change is really odd. Lvl2 unit wielding a bow suggests that some time has been put in honing that skill. Just dropping it completely, and suddenly gaining a spear on lvl3 is strange. Not sure what would be better though.
I'm fine with other changes.
Potentially an alternative to this is that the unit keeps the bow as well (instead of dropping it), but this would mean that the lance and other weapons would be more nerfed.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by ghype » April 5th, 2019, 9:28 am

The_Gnat wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 6:07 am
I believe Xalzar was supporting option 4, (because he mentioned supporting adding a second attack).
He clearly support both, (1) and (4) which is what we going for as well.

Merging (1) and (4) seems the most natural decision right now. We are working on the stats and give you an update here to showcase how exactly that is going to look like.
Caladbolg wrote:
April 4th, 2019, 9:39 pm
Lvl2 unit wielding a bow suggests that some time has been put in honing that skill. Just dropping it completely, and suddenly gaining a spear on lvl3 is strange.
Well there was some sort of training but it does not exceed the lv1 training as it is just about the same strength. If we'd keep the a weak bow to the CTP as well then there is no actual need for 2nd advancement. I'd try to explore more possibilities before dismissing the 2nd sunderer advancement.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Krogen » April 5th, 2019, 11:16 am

Alright, maybe marksman on level 3 and above isn't that bad. And since there is no melee marksman unit in default it could be argued that marksman on melee can mean anything. But on ranged, on 3 unit lines in default that have marksman, it really does look like a statement of skill. Sharpshooter's elvish dexterity and damage point towards that, glider, while it has a different attack he is supposed to be a hunter skilled at hunting moving animals, same for level 3 huntsman. Master Bowman, while skilled, doesn't have the same skills as elves, or the best of the huntsmen, and his bow may simply be better.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 5th, 2019, 12:28 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 6:07 am
I would avoid a single-strike attack for the many aforementioned reasons by which the Piercer was removed from the faction
Personally I think single-strike makes a lot of sense for a shield bash, and if the unit is well-armoured, the retaliation might not be so bad... but if people would prefer two strikes, I guess that's fine too.
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