Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
User avatar
Edwylm
Posts: 168
Joined: August 24th, 2015, 11:18 pm

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Edwylm » March 29th, 2019, 7:21 pm

ghype wrote:
March 29th, 2019, 12:14 am

I think the focus should be here on ranged. Wether it is going to have chakrams or not is left to be seen. I am generally not against it but we have to be carefull to not make it into a too exotic unit and chakrams on a naga already seem very exotic. But maybe its just me.

Also i have no idea how i would deisgn multiply path on a naga with chakrams. it kind of takes away options and i still want to explore multiple paths on a naga.
well one possible way would be having a level 1 throw a freebie like weapon and 1 path throws a chakram and the other path throws a "Shuriken". though you could name it after sea stars.

But i think we should try to work out the balances first then come up with names. this way we might be able to narrow down weapon and unit names rather than randomly suggesting.
Hmm.. still, how would you throw it from your arm if you're holding a sword or something?
they have 2 arms right? one for holding a melee if needed and the other arm to hold a chakrams. remember they are using it as a range attack thus realistically they need a 2nd weapon when they run out of chakrams to throw.

for reference a image from Wikipedia Image

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 29th, 2019, 7:24 pm

To be perfectly fine, i am not opposed chakrams either and it indeed wouldn't be hard to draw. I just don't know how I would then handle advancements visually.

Do the chakrams get bigger, or does it get another weapon?
Does the chakrams have some special?
Does it use a blade on melee or the chakrams?
How could the 2nd advancements of such a naga look like? does it drop the chakrams for a bow like the mermain drops his spears for a net? Or does it start with a bow and the 2nd advancement would be with chakrams?
If we were to start it with a bow and not chakras, than the bow path can focus on dmg and the chakrams on strikes? potentially coupled with some specials/abilities?

just a couple of thoughts thinking out loud.

User avatar
Edwylm
Posts: 168
Joined: August 24th, 2015, 11:18 pm

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Edwylm » March 29th, 2019, 8:56 pm

ghype wrote:
March 29th, 2019, 7:24 pm
Do the chakrams get bigger, or does it get another weapon?
Does the chakrams have some special?
Does it use a blade on melee or the chakrams?
How could the 2nd advancements of such a naga look like? does it drop the chakrams for a bow like the mermain drops his spears for a net? Or does it start with a bow and the 2nd advancement would be with chakrams?
If we were to start it with a bow and not chakras, than the bow path can focus on dmg and the chakrams on strikes? potentially coupled with some specials/abilities?

just a couple of thoughts thinking out loud.
1. typically weapons do increase in size with advancement levels thats what i have seen when looking at most sprites. Or higher levels they have their other weapon shown.
2. up for debate personally i wouldn't. the only special that would fit would be marksman but that might make it op unless its level 2 or level 3
3. that depends on balance and if we want to give it a blade attack for melee. chakrams would have to be blade though.
4. seeing that bows are more common/easier to learn it be likely level 1 would be bow. but lore wise it can be different.
5. that could work maybe we can try working the stats that might be what we are aiming for?

but question if we are using the bow are we going to use UtBS naga hunter+expanding it or a completely different unit?

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 29th, 2019, 10:12 pm

it will be a completely new naga. and it the lv1 will be considered a mixed fighter, which means he is as much ranged of a fighter then melee.

then on a 2nd advancement one could go full range and the other remains mixed or goes full melee, idk, just a thought

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1569
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 29th, 2019, 11:53 pm

Caladbolg wrote:
March 29th, 2019, 6:58 pm
Hmm.. still, how would you throw it from your arm if you're holding a sword or something?
I'd assume you're wielding the sword one-handed (so it's nothing too massive) and have the chakrams on the free arm.
Caladbolg wrote:
March 29th, 2019, 6:58 pm
However, when worn on arms, they can be used in hand to hand combat to block a knife attack, or to lacerate the enemy's arms while trying to get a grip on him. So they can be used as melee weapons in hand to hand combat.
I think this probably wouldn't be effective enough to work as a primary weapon. If they're a ranged class with a weak melee back-up weapon, then I suppose both could be chakrams, but if they're supposed to be a mixed fighter, I think they'd need a proper weapon in hand.
ghype wrote:
March 29th, 2019, 7:24 pm
Does it use a blade on melee or the chakrams?
If you're asking the damage type for the chakrams, I'd go with blade. If you're asking whether they have a backup sword or dagger for their melee attack or use the chakrams directly, I'd go with a backup weapon.
ghype wrote:
March 29th, 2019, 7:24 pm
How could the 2nd advancements of such a naga look like? does it drop the chakrams for a bow like the mermain drops his spears for a net? Or does it start with a bow and the 2nd advancement would be with chakrams?
So I guess you're trying to figure out how it would look if there were two advancement paths... I think switching from chakrams to bow would be a bit underwhelming, so I'd go with dropping bow in favour of chakrams.
ghype wrote:
March 29th, 2019, 7:24 pm
If we were to start it with a bow and not chakras, than the bow path can focus on dmg and the chakrams on strikes? potentially coupled with some specials/abilities?
Sounds reasonable.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
The_Gnat
Posts: 2078
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 3:06 am
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by The_Gnat » March 30th, 2019, 3:46 am

ghype wrote:
March 29th, 2019, 7:24 pm
If we were to start it with a bow and not chakras, than the bow path can focus on dmg and the chakrams on strikes? potentially coupled with some specials/abilities?
Yes I agree, that sounds like the best idea. Then you can still have the interesting advancement of the chakrams.

I feel like most wesnoth units get their interesting attacks on advancement, rather than on level 1 (white mage, sorceress, javelineer, rocklobber, and many more...).

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 30th, 2019, 7:53 am

ok so it appears we have a concept for the naga. we will work on this and update it once we got something

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » April 3rd, 2019, 12:45 pm




Here are a summary of all the updated stats of specific units and changes in unit design for the Naga as the Shieldbreaker was just as fine for the moment.



Naga

Just to summarize that the current state of the Naga we are developing is looking like the following. The one goes on with the normal theme of a mixed fighter and focusing a bit more on melee dmg where as the other focus on ranged dmg with chakrams


Code: Select all

Lv1: 4-3m blade, 6-2r pierce
Lv2: 7-3m blade, 9-2r pierce
Lv3: 9-4m blade, 12-2r pierce

Lv2: 5-3m blade, 7-4 blade
Lv2: 6-3m blade, 8-5 blade


Dust Sprit

As mentioned in the original post, we were working on another Dunefolk Extra Unit along with the Shield Breaker and Naga. But we weren't quiet ready with it upon release, so we include it now. By no means we should now dismiss everything discussed regarding the SB and Naga, but maybe this opens up new perspectives which can enrich Dunefolk lore even more.
We updated the original post. You can find the Dust Sprit section at the very bottom fo the "Extra Units".



User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1569
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 4th, 2019, 12:56 pm

So this "dust sprite/spirit" is going to be part of the faction? (Is it supposed to be sprite or spirit by the way?) I'll read the detailed explanation later...
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » April 4th, 2019, 2:29 pm

It's supposed to be an alternative the Naga unit for water control (more or less). The implementation is just a bit more complex then the naga's. Hence the detailed explanations.

Caladbolg
Posts: 198
Joined: January 1st, 2016, 4:40 pm
Location: Hopelessly trapped within the Submachine

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Caladbolg » April 4th, 2019, 9:56 pm

Naga and DS mostly look good. DS's arcane res could be a bit lower, like -30%, purely for lore reasons. Elves and ghosts have -10%, skellies have -50%, drakes have -30%. Arcane is anti-magic, and I'd suppose a spirit-like sandstorm is at least more magical than a drake. If balance is not a huge issue in this case, as you said, then it shouldn't be a problem.
And DS's AMLA seems a bit complicated. I don't mind it, but I'll have to check out how it looks in-game. Usually you're presented with just a few unit names to choose from upon advancement, and with DS, you're hit with several lines of stat modifiers.

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 4105
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Pentarctagon » April 4th, 2019, 11:53 pm

I still prefer having a Naga, though mostly since I like how it fits into their lore.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1569
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 5th, 2019, 12:45 am

I agree, if it's a choice between a naga and a dust devil, I'd prefer the naga – it seems more interesting to me and also makes more sense.

I have a few problems with the reasoning presented for the dust devil (by the way, "dust spirit" is a much less interesting name).
ghype wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 8:25 pm
it is possible that Dunefolk Tamers were able to adapt their taming skills for Dust Devils
This seems like a strange theory. A dust devil is a much more supernatural creature than a wyvern, so assuming it could be tamed, I think the methods would be very different. That said, I suppose it's plausible that the dunefolk figured out how to do it.
ghype wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 8:25 pm
One however could debate how much elemental Dust Devils/Spirits really are.
Of course it's only one interpretation, but to me they look very much like an earth elemental. I don't think it's likely the elemental trait was solely given for campaign balance – it absolutely fits the unit as well.
ghype wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 8:25 pm
They however have magic/arcane melee attacks, suggestion they might really be magical creatures (which however is questionable as well as it could be just as well non-magical impact instead).
I would classify elementals as magical creatures. Even if you disagree, I think it's entirely possible for a creature to belong to both categories.
ghype wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 8:25 pm
Arcane resistance matters little, DD has -40% but for example -20% makes more sense. leaving it at -20% seems fine
Actually, lore-wise arcane vulnerability is given to supernatural creatures or something like that, so I think it could make sense for it to have more than 20%. For reference, the Fire Guardian has -30% arcane.
ghype wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 8:25 pm
it being arcane makes little sense, so it was changed to impact.
I do agree that impact makes more sense for a sandstorm type attack.
  • Spirit movetype since it is a spirit,
Is that the same as the Fire Guardian too?
ghype wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 8:25 pm
Lawful and not neutral – DD is neutral, but it is better if DS would be lawful.
I think it makes more sense as neutral, since it's kind of a force of nature. The Fire Guardian is also neutral, for example.
ghype wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 8:25 pm
From a lore perspective the reason is quite simple – on hot deserts sandstorms are more frequent during day than during night, and are also stronger, therefore DS being associated with sandstorms gets stronger at day.
I cansee your reasoning here though, assuming it's correct (I don't know anything about desert meteorology). But if you were going with that, I'd wonder whether the Fire Guardian's alignment should be changed on similar grounds.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
The_Gnat
Posts: 2078
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 3:06 am
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by The_Gnat » April 5th, 2019, 4:57 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
April 4th, 2019, 11:53 pm
I still prefer having a Naga, though mostly since I like how it fits into their lore.
I personally agree. But both would be valuable additions to the faction. :)
Caladbolg wrote:
April 4th, 2019, 9:56 pm
And DS's AMLA seems a bit complicated. I don't mind it, but I'll have to check out how it looks in-game. Usually you're presented with just a few unit names to choose from upon advancement, and with DS, you're hit with several lines of stat modifiers.
That is a good point. The AMLA is still being considered. :)
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:45 am
This seems like a strange theory. A dust devil is a much more supernatural creature than a wyvern, so assuming it could be tamed, I think the methods would be very different. That said, I suppose it's plausible that the dunefolk figured out how to do it.
True, taming doesn't seem natural for a strange creature such as this. However, it should be considered that if the DS is sentient instead of merely a animal then it could have a greater relationship than purely that of a 'trained' creature.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:45 am
Of course it's only one interpretation, but to me they look very much like an earth elemental. I don't think it's likely the elemental trait was solely given for campaign balance – it absolutely fits the unit as well.
Yes I agree, the creature certainly could be construed as elemental. In regards to this it could be argued for and against whether it is actually elemental but the overall point worth noting is that it is not so much a debate as to whether the creatures are magical as if the DF think the are. Even if the DS is elemental, if the DF believe for whatever reason that the DS is not then technically it does not violate there pre-conceived heritage of anti-magic. This is a complex multi-faceted consideration but overall I believe it can work for the DF either way and therefore I don't believe too much time need be spent discussing the DS's elemental state, that can be open to the interpretation of people who, in future, write campaigns for the DF :)
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:45 am
would classify elementals as magical creatures. Even if you disagree, I think it's entirely possible for a creature to belong to both categories.
That is another very good point. The elemental creature can be both magical and non-magical depending on how it is considered.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:45 am
Actually, lore-wise arcane vulnerability is given to supernatural creatures or something like that, so I think it could make sense for it to have more than 20%. For reference, the Fire Guardian has -30% arcane.
One consideration that need be made is the arcane attacks of the Adept and Ghost. The arcane resistance cannot just be shoved around to whatever suits thematically but also needs to be carefully considered in the UD matchup especially in light of its current stats which also include a cold weakness.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:45 am
I think it makes more sense as neutral, since it's kind of a force of nature. The Fire Guardian is also neutral, for example.
I think in regards to this issue the balance of the faction is a stronger priority than the thematic role that this would have. As neutral the faction would have three alignments including both the liminal which is effectively neutral and the DS which would be actually neutral. Not only does this complicate the deployments of the faction it makes it harder to effectively use the units available.

Furthermore, the alignment of the Dust Spirit as neutral was considered previously and it was actually found to be too weak and in-effective. Some of our balance team would probably be best to explain this situation but basically the neutral alignment is a less specific attacking unit with power spread across a variety of situations. This variety can be very useful for other units (such as elves) but it means for the DS that its already limited damage (because of its scouting role) is further reduced to a point which borders on completely ineffective.

The DS situation is particularly exacerbated because of the Swarm attack which is a very effective weapon for first strike but very in-effective in sustained combat. Because of this and the DS's high maneuverability the DS is a unit which thrives on hit-and-run operations and therefore is considerably more effective when it has the opportunity to have +25% damage at certain ToD's then if it is neutral for all ToD's because it will rarely be fighting all day long in either case (note: if you are now considering if its hit-and-run style will work as a water control, you should consider its high physical resistances which make it very strong against all other water unit in mainline, it is particularly ineffective in prolonged combat because of its significant vulnerability in any situation where a fire/cold/arcane unit can reach the DS, this happens much less often when the DS resides in the water).

It is also important to note that with the DS as lawful it is able to work well with the Soldier as a tank to support its relatively weak position. Because of this synergy the DS as neutral would be considerably worse. Hopefully that makes the situation more clear. :)
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:45 am
I cansee your reasoning here though, assuming it's correct (I don't know anything about desert meteorology). But if you were going with that, I'd wonder whether the Fire Guardian's alignment should be changed on similar grounds.
The Fire Guardian could very well be changed, as it is not part of a default era faction its alignment is of far less consequence. :)

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » April 5th, 2019, 9:31 am

Quite frankly, I don't have much to comment on the Dust Spirit section as Krogen was the one coming up with this concept. I only updated the post/thread. So we should wait to hear his thoughts on this.

I too prefer naga over DS (but that could be mostly because i like the new naga sprite I posted recently a lot).

Post Reply