Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

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ghype
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 28th, 2019, 9:05 am

I am glad to see the naga is vibrantly discussed here. As far as I can tell many of you do not want a another melee naga which is fully understandable and now upon some reflection it makes sense not have another.
Edwylm wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 2:58 am
evel 1 can be a default with no specials/abilities. I wouldn't mind seeing a naga line have 2 different paths.
that is something we actually have not thought about and it is totally worth a consideration. Initially i was against a mixed naga but with multiple advancement it could be interesting. we are currently figuring out how that might look like.
sergey wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 7:56 am
An idea for the naga. Melee - impact tail. Ranged
Dunefolk already has alot of impact dmg. also it has a chakra for ranged, why shouldn't it use for melee as well?

sergey wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 6:54 am
you will completely remove the Falcon from the game or just exclude it from the DF faction?
falcon will probably remain in mainline but not in the faction (we are no one to decide such thing thought. but it sure has no place in the mp faction).

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by sergey » March 28th, 2019, 9:25 am

ghype wrote: Dunefolk already has alot of impact dmg. also it has a chakra for ranged, why shouldn't it use for melee as well?
Chakram is not suitable for melee, it has no handle. And DF also have a lot of blade damage.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 28th, 2019, 9:50 am

sergey wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 9:25 am
Chakram is not suitable for melee, it has no handle.
Fair point. I did some research and only chakrams with handle would fit for melee combat, but they'd loose their air travel abilities. All in all the chakram is a gnarly weapon and i like the concept. But if there is a unit fighting with chakrams, then it would be specialised in that and probably be a ranged unit.
I wouldn't know how to design a two path advancement for a such a unti if we follow Edylms suggestion (which I'd really like to consider).

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 28th, 2019, 12:38 pm

sergey wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 6:54 am
(you will completely remove the Falcon from the game or just exclude it from the DF faction?)
Probably the latter – exclude it from the Dunefolk faction. The falcon could fit well as a flavour campaign unit not just for Dunefolk but also for loyalists or outlaws.
ghype wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 9:05 am
also it has a chakra for ranged, why shouldn't it use for melee as well?
Huh? Can you use a chakram at close range though? It's sharp all the way around, so there's no place to grip it. At most you could put it on your wrist and swipe at someone, but that doesn't seem very effective as a primary weapon.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 28th, 2019, 12:55 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 12:38 pm
Huh? Can you use a chakram at close range though?
As mentioned in the comment before, there are also gripped chakrams even if they were never used in real life history. Here is an example of some interesting one which not only has a grip but also gets breaken down into two parts so you can hold a half in head hand.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Caladbolg » March 28th, 2019, 3:21 pm

I'm also against any merging of Spearguard and Shieldbreaker lines, as they seem too different from each other.

As for the Naga, how about 5 x 2 melee blade, 3 x 4 ranged blade (chakrams)? That way it could work as a mixed fighter on lvl 1, and then go more towards ranged later on. (Naga can't be too range-oriented on lvl1 as it has to compete with Naga and Mermen Fighters).

For melee they could maybe have a barbed tail, or even a piece of light armor on their tail with a blade attached. That way, they could do blade damage by swinging their tail. A barbed tail would also make the unit more distinct visually, and it would free the hands for chakrams, whereas having chakrams and then also some hand-held melee weapon might be a bit tricky to show on a sprite. Barbed tail could also be pierce if needed.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by sergey » March 28th, 2019, 5:23 pm

Caladbolg wrote: Naga can't be too range-oriented on lvl1 as it has to compete with Naga and Mermen Fighters.
Why ranged unit can't compete with melee unit? I can imagine equal 1-to-1 combat between only melee and only ranged unit as long as they have similar HP, resistances and defense.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Edwylm » March 28th, 2019, 5:52 pm

i'm against having a tail strike. it be very awkward and not practical. on land they be slithering on land while still need to be balanced which is hard to use your tail as a weapon. might be they use their hands to support their attack but this leads them wide open to attack. as you stated but best ways for a tail to be used as a weapon would be to have it long and thin with it being like a wipe, club or spikes. adding spikes or blades would need to be small so they do not get caught in the enemies armor. Also in UtBS you have naga guardian and its line for impact but its not in multiplayer.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by The_Gnat » March 28th, 2019, 6:54 pm

sergey wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 5:23 pm
Why ranged unit can't compete with melee unit? I can imagine equal 1-to-1 combat between only melee and only ranged unit as long as they have similar HP, resistances and defense.
Good question. Probably an easy answer is that traditionally ranged units are worse at holding ground which is a key aim of water control. But, that said, I don't see any reason why the unit can't be primarily ranged and still average at melee.
Edwylm wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 5:52 pm
i'm against having a tail strike.
Yes I agree.
Caladbolg wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 3:21 pm
For melee they could maybe have a barbed tail, or even a piece of light armor on their tail with a blade attached. That way, they could do blade damage by swinging their tail. A barbed tail would also make the unit more distinct visually, and it would free the hands for chakrams, whereas having chakrams and then also some hand-held melee weapon might be a bit tricky to show on a sprite. Barbed tail could also be pierce if needed.
That is certainly an interesting idea, but along with the reasons Edwylm gave, thematically a tail attack doesn't really seem to fit for such a creature.

What do other people think about a tail attack? Would it make sense for a Naga?

I believe overall most people are happy to see a ranged Chakram. I agree that would be a very unique and interesting weapon.
Caladbolg wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 3:21 pm
I'm also against any merging of Spearguard and Shieldbreaker lines, as they seem too different from each other.
Yes I think most people have come to that conclusion. The Spearguard fits better into the Soldier line then the Shield Breaker.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by sergey » March 28th, 2019, 7:47 pm

This merman from the "Dead Water" campaign has a tail attack. And its tail is much shorter than naga's. https://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline ... awler.html
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 29th, 2019, 12:14 am

The_Gnat wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 6:54 pm
I believe overall most people are happy to see a ranged Chakram.
I think the focus should be here on ranged. Wether it is going to have chakrams or not is left to be seen. I am generally not against it but we have to be carefull to not make it into a too exotic unit and chakrams on a naga already seem very exotic. But maybe its just me.

Also i have no idea how i would deisgn multiply path on a naga with chakrams. it kind of takes away options and i still want to explore multiple paths on a naga.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 29th, 2019, 1:51 am

ghype wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 12:55 pm
As mentioned in the comment before, there are also gripped chakrams even if they were never used in real life history. Here is an example of some interesting one which not only has a grip but also gets breaken down into two parts so you can hold a half in head hand.
While true, this is completely separate weapon, so it doesn't work as justification for having both ranged chakram and melee chakram,
Caladbolg wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 3:21 pm
For melee they could maybe have a barbed tail, or even a piece of light armor on their tail with a blade attached. That way, they could do blade damage by swinging their tail. A barbed tail would also make the unit more distinct visually, and it would free the hands for chakrams, whereas having chakrams and then also some hand-held melee weapon might be a bit tricky to show on a sprite. Barbed tail could also be pierce if needed.
You don't need hands free for chakrams – they loop over the arm and are probably thrown straight from there as well. As for a tail attack, it's a cool idea, but as others have mentioned I think it's poorly-suited for a legless naga. That doesn't mean it absolutely can't work, mind you, but it wouldn't make sense as a principal weapon, at the very least.
sergey wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 7:47 pm
This merman from the "Dead Water" campaign has a tail attack.
But merfolk are fully-aquatic creatures, whereas nagas are amphibious. Admittedly the game ignores this distinction, allowing the brawler to use his tail attack just as easily on land (perhaps it could make sense if you imagine him pivoting on his fists?), but... anyway, the difficulty of a tail attack for the naga is that, on land, their tail is also their sole support, which in theory may make it tricky to pull off a tail attack, though it depends a lot on other factors too. Still... the existing nagas and portraits do little to suggest that a naga's body is long enough for multiple coils while standing erect; the sprites in particular suggest a naga's body roughly forms a U shape when they are standing erect on solid ground, which suggests that the length of leftover tail raised from the ground may not be enough for an effective attack. The higher-level naga portrait is more ambiguous, mind you; based on the portrait, I could totally imagine the myrmidon pulling off a successful tail attack.
ghype wrote:
March 29th, 2019, 12:14 am
we have to be carefull to not make it into a too exotic unit
Sorry uh... why exactly?
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 29th, 2019, 4:28 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 29th, 2019, 1:51 am
too exotic
as in too un-traditional which at some point would have to be reflected in the sprite. a lasso with 9 blade attached to it (which is from the same time period used by the same people who used chakrams) would be almost too exotic for a naga, wouldn't it?

thats all i am saying, it can be exotic, but with some boundaries. maybe it is just me though ...

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 29th, 2019, 12:14 pm

If the idea is to keep it from being too complicated for the sprite artist, I guess that makes sense...
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Caladbolg » March 29th, 2019, 6:58 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 29th, 2019, 1:51 am
You don't need hands free for chakrams – they loop over the arm and are probably thrown straight from there as well. As for a tail attack, it's a cool idea, but as others have mentioned I think it's poorly-suited for a legless naga.
Hmm.. still, how would you throw it from your arm if you're holding a sword or something?
Yeah, I guess the tail attack would be impractical after all. I'll drop that suggestion then.
-----------
Well, I did some reading/watching some stuff on chakrams so I'll write the tl;dr version here for reference if we decide to go with chakrams:

Apparently, they were worn around arms like bracelets, larger ones over the neck, and some even on turbans. Not only could they be quickly taken off and thrown, but while worn, you could cut the enemy just by moving past him. Though honestly, claims of chakrams actually being useful while placed on a turban and such seem a bit dubious to me. However, when worn on arms, they can be used in hand to hand combat to block a knife attack, or to lacerate the enemy's arms while trying to get a grip on him. So they can be used as melee weapons in hand to hand combat.

Smaller ones could even be gripped firmly enough to be used in hand as melee weapons, but not with a full hammer grip so, while that could technically work, a simple knife would fulfill the same purpose more easily.

As for ranged, they can be thrown like frisbees. Throwing them this way has some risk of cutting allies to the sides, so they were also thrown vertically, especially when thrown from horseback.
They can also be thrown by spinning them on a finger to give them momentum, and then releasing. A chakram thrower would stand behind a few soldiers slightly crouched behind shield, with his finger raised above his head, and fling the chakram from a safe position. This technique requires more training, but also less full-body motion, allowing the other hand to hold some other weapon.
Smaller chakrams can be held in a stack in one hand, and flung in a quick succession with the other, like playing cards flung horizontally from atop of a deck one by one.

And considering naga's serpentine body, they would probably be able to give more momentum to chakrams with their coiling full-body movements, making certain throwing techniques more effective. Even when they remain on their arms, naga's range of motion would make it a tricky melee weapon in hand to hand combat.

As for the sprite, it'd just require a few metal rings around the arms, and maybe one in hand.

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