Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

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The_Gnat
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » January 8th, 2019, 8:32 am

@Celtic_Minstrel - those are all really good ideas for the reasons for fire resistance. Now of course the question is if it would cause any unintended side effects? I think the lawful units having resistance would definitely be an improvement in the Drake match up.

Also I would like to see the burners melee changed to a different type. That would not only solve the thematic issues people have been debating but also would improve it in the Drake match up. It would go from absolutely and completely useless to mildly weak against drakes (with the mild fire resistance and decent melee attack). But it would be actually a good unit against saurian, allowing the DF to combat the saurian skirmishers better and making the match up more interesting tactically, by allowing more deployments.

(note the minor weakening in the undead match up would not be an issue because of other proposed buffs that the discord group are suggesting which raise the performance of the faction as a whole)

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Update

Post by ghype » January 11th, 2019, 3:44 pm


Short Update:

In case you are wondering what happened to our rework of Dunefolk, well ... there has been the christmas vacation which happen to be 3 weeks long. Hence the delay. People might think there might have been enough time to finish this project in the vacation, but I exclusively work on Wesnoth when I am in classes. So there is that.

I am glad that the discussion went on without us and i have to go back and read, analyse, consider & implement all the new suggestions in our project. There is a fortunate announcement I want to make:
A big part of this rework is the presentation which we want to be as clear and organised as possible since there is an unbelievable amount of content to comment on. An impressive amount of work has been done over the last week thanks to the contribution of certain forum users.
My prognosis is that in about 2 weeks, we should be able to make our thoughts public.

Thanks for your patience.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » January 11th, 2019, 7:39 pm

Thanks for the update :)
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » February 10th, 2019, 7:23 pm

So uhhh... it's been more than four weeks now. Any progress on this?
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » February 11th, 2019, 2:47 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
February 10th, 2019, 7:23 pm
So uhhh... it's been more than four weeks now. Any progress on this?
Hello, sorry about the lack of a progress update. I personally have been very busy with RL for the past few weeks so that has slowed the project slightly. However, all the other members are still very actively working on this. We have been play testing and making further balance changes as a result. Along with this we have been trying to cohesively organize our suggestions and the arguments behind them in order to clearly present the logic behind them and why the resulting changes which have been made will be an improvement to the faction.

Overall the changes have been quite successful and I am happy to report a significantly better balanced faction then before, but you will see that for yourselves soon enough. :)

I can't give any firm numbers for when we will be complete, ghype would be the person to ask that, but I estimate that it shouldn't be too much longer.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » February 11th, 2019, 3:07 am

I'd definitely like to see even just a rough overview of the changes you're planning, not little number tweaks but any bigger changes. If I recall correctly, some new units were being worked on, and at least one unit line had the possibility of significant changes?
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » February 11th, 2019, 3:36 am

I can't tell you anything without first checking with the group, but I would be happy to do so. Its not really a secret, its just that we aren't done yet and so we don't want to start advertising big changes until we have considered all possible outcomes.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » February 12th, 2019, 4:18 pm

I am sorry for the keeping this a big secret but we are so close to finish that it wouldn't make sense to talk about it now.
Really the problem was I who worked only during studies. But many of my classes got canceled and now I am on vacation again.
But this time i working also in my free time. So yeah ... we are getting there.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » March 9th, 2019, 10:49 pm

Update: By the way just to let everyone know this project is still very active. We are continually working on this but it has been a pretty massive undertaking. It is nearly complete now (but since we said that a month ago I don't expect you to believe me this time ;) ).

And also just prepare yourselves in advance because we have written about 20 pages (maybe more) about the new DF faction and the reasons behind the changes. We will of course give a short summary for everyone who doesn't want to read it all. ;)

When we finish the changes we will have a very improved DF faction! It is going to be pretty much complete as far as balancing and also there are a number of changes to artwork but we will be looking for the communities input into that.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 10th, 2019, 7:54 am

You don't actually expect me to take your word for it that all your improvements are for the better, right? I don't like the way this is proceeding behind closed doors without even any hint about what you're working on.

If you had even just posted periodic summaries of what you were working on, it would've been much nicer. Instead all we get is empty updates that don't tell us anything at all.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » March 10th, 2019, 9:40 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 7:54 am
You don't actually expect me to take your word for it that all your improvements are for the better, right?
I assume that's what "we will be looking for the communities input into that" meant.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » March 10th, 2019, 11:20 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 7:54 am
I don't like the way this is proceeding behind closed doors without even any hint about what you're working on.
This was never our intention. We just realised the sheer size of such a project when we were already deep inside. We have a had a thread of 300 posts which, yes pointed out some things on DF that needs improvement, but there were only like what, two or three things people could agree upon?

Yes, we could have given some sort of less vague comments on what we are working on, we did not anticipated this to extend so long. The content was mostly done but we had really just to bring it into organised manner for posting it, which is what took really long.

Our goal was it , to not only come up with ideas for improvements, but to also display all these thoughts in the best possible way. So we optimal discussion condition without needing 300 comments to conclude something.

We are actually wrapping this up as we really want to publish this as much as you want. We thought to release it this weekend but yeah ...

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » March 10th, 2019, 8:38 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 7:54 am
You don't actually expect me to take your word for it that all your improvements are for the better, right?
Actually no we do expect you to take our word on it :D because 'our word' is going to be a 20+ pages document about why our changes are good balance changes for the DF.

There certainly will be some things that we would like to discuss and some areas that you don't believe we have done properly ;) but as a whole after reading the billion comments we have written we hope you all will agree with us.

As ghype has said a some of the time we have been spending is in presentation of the ideas because we know that balancing is only half the issue, the other half is convincing you that we did a good job.

The main thing we wanted to avoid, which is why we have spent so long in analysis and development and been secretive is pointless discussions that ramble in circles and never get anywhere.

Honestly before the project began we had spent 17 pages on this forum discussing the DF and only agreed on two minor changes. This project has made over a dozen major changes and a hundred minor changes to stat's and this has been a massive undertaking that would have been impossible in the general forum. Even in our small group working on the project we have had our fair share of arguments, discussions that go around in circles, and discussions that we already discussed before ;) it is because of this that I believe it has been best that this project hasn't been open to everyone because honestly I don't believe it ever would have achieved much if it had.

You yourself know how many 'DF balancing' threads their have been in the past.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 7:54 am
I don't like the way this is proceeding behind closed doors without even any hint about what you're working on.
You are perfectly justified in that opinion and honestly i believe it would have been fine to give generic updates, however, I understand the reasoning why the team has preferred we don't. The key factor is the fact that if we give out brief updates about our major changes without support or explanation then we invite controversy and encourage argument, undermining our project before it even finishes. Of course we could take the middle ground where we give out some explanation about our major changes, but even then we are forced to talk about things we have not yet concluded or have not yet finished writing about.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 10th, 2019, 10:13 pm

I'm 90% sure I won't care about the hundred minor changes to stats, but the major changes are another story. I hope it'll at least be easy to pick them out from the rest.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » March 10th, 2019, 10:38 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 10:13 pm
I'm 90% sure I won't care about the hundred minor changes to stats, but the major changes are another story. I hope it'll at least be easy to pick them out from the rest.
The major changes they will be presented very obviously so no one is confused :)

Also josteph made a very valid comment that often closed doors themselves foster innate contention because the creators feel emotionally attached to their work and others feel quite the opposite. I would like to assure everyone that I have no aim besides a balanced DF faction and we will strongly avoid baises that would hinder us from receiving input from the community and how to further improve the faction.

I said previously that the DF is well balanced now, but that is not an absolute nor do I delusion myself into thinking it can not still be improved. We have laid the foundations for a greatly improved DF faction and while probably we, who worked on the project, are hoping you will all agree with what we have done - ultimately wesnoth is about the community. We want your feedback and look forward to hearing your thoughts on what we have done. :D

Hopefully this clarifies my position, as it seems there was a bit of confusion before :) (because I was unclear) ;)

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