Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by name » December 13th, 2018, 5:12 pm

Xalzar wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 12:03 am
About attacks, I can say for sure that two "double-fire-attack" units are too much, even if their role is different.
Will not the burner be trading in its fire melee for some other attack type though?
Xalzar wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 12:03 am
Or it could be a "sand storm" attack with impact damage, swarm special like the UtBS Dust Devil.
This would be a decent alternative to a ranged fire attack in terms of lore (the mythology of jinn causing sandstorms) and balance (still works better on loyalists than drakes). Swarm is a harmful trait meant for attacks that have many (individually weak) strikes. Due to this new weakness plus the nature of a sandstorm, I would also give such an attack "slows".
Xalzar wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 12:03 am
As the Gnat said, one single poisonous attack is not reliable enough. There's already history with the Orc Assassin which had more than one attack and even then it was deemed unreliable and buffed with marksman.
Fair point, I will revise both proposals to have 3 poison strikes.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 1:35 am
Could someone post a full set of stats for what they think the naga should be, at least for the level one? I'm getting somewhat lost with all the various suggestions on what could be tweaked or redone across multiple posts by multiple people.
Full versions of my naga proposals:

Code: Select all

name= Naga Spitter
cost=15
xp=33
hp=29
moves=7
move_type=naga (but maybe 50% sand defense)
alignment=lawful

attack1:
    name= blade whip
    range=melee
    type=blade
    damage=6
    strikes=2
    specials=firststrike

attack2:
    name= venom
    range=ranged
    type=pierce
    damage=2
    strikes=3
    specials=poison

Code: Select all

name= Naga Ringcaster
cost=15
xp=33
hp=29
moves=7
move_type=naga (but maybe 50% sand defense)
alignment=lawful

attack1:
    name= fangs
    range=melee
    type=pierce
    damage=2
    strikes=3
    specials=poison

attack2:
    name= blade ring
    range=ranged
    type=blade
    damage=3
    strikes=4

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Edwylm » December 13th, 2018, 7:23 pm

Full versions of my naga proposals:
note that the whip wouldn't work well in water too much water resistance and whip length would hinder the user. Thus it can not be a first strike attack.

but overall the attacks you have suggested are too weak for most level 1 recruit based units they are more like level 0 attack ranges

That seems somewhat underpowered to me
yes it seems under-powered to me considering most poison attack have more attack power behind a 2 strike attack even the naga hunter has more power. i would suggest adding another strike. right now the attack power seems to be level 0 than a level 1.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 14th, 2018, 2:33 am

ghype wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm
at the very beginning we thought that the 50% fungus would be a nice trait and would help DF in certain situation in a fairly balanced matter. But the reasons lorewise to not 50% on fungus is understandable after user "name" brought up some valid points against it and enforcing the lore. Now we would have to decide what is more important, Lore or Balance?
Personally I consider lore to be more important, but at the same time I don't see increased mushroom defense as contradicting the lore.
ghype wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm
Alternativly, there are options to buff it only for , lets say only liminal units, or maybe even more sustainable for the lore - we'd buff the fungus def only for the herbalist, since fungi and herbs is that what he probably deals with the most (even if fungi are rare in deserts/dunes).
Ideally, we could ignore the buff for any other unit in DF so we can buff the herbalists def from 60% instead of just 50%!
For the record, there totally are fungi in the desert. I don't know how common they are, mind you.
ghype wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm
(2 )adding a third alignment (neutral) is agreed upon to make DF unnecessary complex. Lawful or Liminal would be preferred.
Personally, lawful makes the most sense for a jinn, lore-wise.

By the way, we might also want to discuss what the singular of "jinn" will be and whether to spell it with a D.
name wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 7:21 pm
Naga Spitter
Melee: Blade 6x2 First Strike (Urumi / Blade Whip)
Ranged: Impact 2x1 Poison (Venomous Spit)

Naga Ringcaster
Melee: Pierce 2x2 Poison (Venomous Bite)
Ranged: Blade 3x4 (Chakram / Blade Ring)
Chakram is indeed a cool weapon (I don't think I like "blade ring" though), but urumi seems overly weird. Also, "blade whip" to me would evoke a single-tailed weapon, like the Chinese version.

I'm not overly fond of the bite/spit idea, but I'd probably prefer bite over spit.
Caladbolg wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 12:41 pm
If we go with sand Jinn, 6mp + (ambush on sand) might be cool.
Personally, I think sand ambush should be reserved for the (hypothetical) sand worm monster (possibly based on the Mongolian Death Worm). I also think jinn should definitely be primarily fire-based, though I'm not against them having a sand-impact attack (or if you want pierce, you could make it glass).
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 14th, 2018, 7:49 am

So, current proposals for the level one Naga:
  1. Code: Select all

    name=Naga Poisoner
    hp=28
    xp=35
    cost=17
    moves=7
    alignment=liminal
    
    attack1:
        name=spear
        specials=poison
        type=pierce
        strikes=2
        damage=6
    
    attack2:
        name=bow
        type=pierce
        strikes=3
        damage=3
    
    resistances:
        arcane=0%
        blade=-10%
        cold=0%
        fire=0%
        impact=-20%
        pierce=-10%
    
    terrain defense,movement costs:
        castle=50%,1
        coastal reef=70%,1
        deep water=60%,1
        flat=40%,2
        forest=50%,3
        fungus=50%,2
        hills=50%,3
        mountains=40%,3
        sand=50%,1
        shallow water=70%,1
        swamp=70%,1
        village=50%,1
  2. Code: Select all

    name=Naga Poisoner
    hp=28
    cost=16
    moves=7
    alignment=liminal
    
    movetype=naga   #all defenses and movement costs the same by as the default naga
        
    attack1:
        name=spear
        specials=poison
        type=pierce
        strikes=2
        damage=6
        
    attack2:
        name=bow
        type=pierce
        strikes=3
        damage=3
    
    resistances:
        arcane=0%
        blade=-10%
        cold=0%
        fire=0%
        impact=-20%
        pierce=-10%
  3. Code: Select all

    name= Naga Spitter
    cost=15
    xp=33
    hp=29
    moves=7
    move_type=naga (but maybe 50% sand defense)
    alignment=lawful
    
    attack1:
        name= blade whip
        range=melee
        type=blade
        damage=6
        strikes=2
        specials=firststrike
    
    attack2:
        name= venom
        range=ranged
        type=pierce
        damage=2
        strikes=3
        specials=poison
    
  4. Code: Select all

    name= Naga Ringcaster
    cost=15
    xp=33
    hp=29
    moves=7
    move_type=naga (but maybe 50% sand defense)
    alignment=lawful
    
    attack1:
        name= fangs
        range=melee
        type=pierce
        damage=2
        strikes=3
        specials=poison
    
    attack2:
        name= blade ring
        range=ranged
        type=blade
        damage=3
        strikes=4
    
#1 is mine, and I'm pretty open to changing anything about it except completely reverting the movetype/movement.
#2 is The_Gnat's, which as I've said looks underpowered to me.
#3 and #4 are name's, which I think is okay - the lower cost and additional strike for the poison attack are good - though I still prefer #1.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 14th, 2018, 2:33 am
ghype wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm
at the very beginning we thought that the 50% fungus would be a nice trait and would help DF in certain situation in a fairly balanced matter. But the reasons lorewise to not 50% on fungus is understandable after user "name" brought up some valid points against it and enforcing the lore. Now we would have to decide what is more important, Lore or Balance?
Personally I consider lore to be more important, but at the same time I don't see increased mushroom defense as contradicting the lore.
I'd have to disagree with lore being more important than balance - it would be better to have a balanced faction for playing with, and if there's anything particularly unusual about some stat or detail, then it can be explained by a sentence or three in a unit description or the race description.

As a specific example regarding mushrooms though, on the Freelands map, the villages at 27,16 and 11,9 are adjacent only to flat and a single mushroom tile. Every single other faction has multiple units they can put there that have improved defense - except the Dunefolk, who also have no units who can take advantage of the forest tiles along the center area of the map's three "lanes".
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 14th, 2018, 9:09 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 6:26 am
That seems somewhat underpowered to me then, honestly. It's a squishy, somewhat expensive unit with the least reliable poison attack in the mainline factions.
In that case buff it to 6-2 damage or decrease the price.

I agree with you that it is under powered for the price. Could you modify your most recent post (list of proposals #2) to cost 1 less and hit 6-2 melee. :)
name wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 5:12 pm
Full versions of my naga proposals:
I personally can see the naga thematically filling the liminal role more. Furthermore I think it would add to the deployment of the faction to have it as liminal.
name wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 5:12 pm
Will not the burner be trading in its fire melee for some other attack type though?
Yes, I don't believe that burner can be used as an argument for or against anything because it is not set in stone. The overall balance is the aim and so with that in mind I believe we should make the proposals considering the long term achievement of this aim.
Xalzar wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 12:03 am
At first I thought that buffing the defense on mushrooms was non-sensical, but now I'm quite indifferent
I agree. It is not enough of an issue to really make any significant difference. I would go as far as saying it is a non-factor. When the factions are truly balanced the difference will not be determined by single hexes scattered throughout the map and a few percentile difference.

That is not to say I don't support the change. The DF can use all the buffs possible. ;)
ghype wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 12:59 pm
We are talking 200+ comments about dunefolk balancing but are too afraid/too lazy to balance some arcane attacks?
It doesnt seem to make sense to me.
It is not that we don't think we can balance arcane. It is just a step in the wrong direction. Fire seems to make more sense for the current match ups, and so in order to have a discussion it would need some compelling reasons that justify it over fire. :)

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 14th, 2018, 9:15 am

The_Gnat wrote:
December 14th, 2018, 9:09 am
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 6:26 am
That seems somewhat underpowered to me then, honestly. It's a squishy, somewhat expensive unit with the least reliable poison attack in the mainline factions.
In that case buff it to 6-2 damage or decrease the price.

I agree with you that it is under powered for the price. Could you modify your most recent post (list of proposals #2) to cost 1 less and hit 6-2 melee. :)
Done.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Caladbolg » December 15th, 2018, 4:00 pm

About Naga proposals. I don't like #3 mainly due to ranged poison, but I'm not fond of the general concept either. #4 is interesting but seems very weak in terms of damage output so I'm not sure if it would be able to fight competently against other factions' water control units. I'm for something between #1 and #2. The only difference is +1 gold cost and better movetype for #1. However, I think #1 has too strong a movetype. Compared to standard Naga movetype that #2 has, proposal #1 has the following advantages:

castle -1 mp
coastal reef -1 mp
deep water +10% def
flat +10% def
forest +10% def
fungus +10% def
hills +10% def
mountains -2 mp
sand +10% def
shallow water +10% def
swamp +10% def
village +10% def

I agree with improvements to movetype on sand, deep and shallow water and coastal reef. I'm against improvements to forest, hills and mountains movetype. If horsemen generally can't go into mountains, I don't see why amphibious unit whose purpose is water control would be able to. I'd even be fine with Naga being completely unable to go there. Mainline naga can move in mountains at the cost of 5mp and that's completely fine as I'm concerned. With that, naga can go into mountains, but just one hex. Lvl 3 naga from Pentarctagon's proposal would be able to move 2 hexes there if quick.

I'm unsure about improvements to castle, flat, fungus, swamp and village terrains. If flat gets +10%, it makes sense for hills and forests to also get +10%. In any case, I support a movetype better than that of a standard naga (for all proposals). But I think #1 goes a bit too far with it. Maybe I'd even agree with 50% def on hills and forests and 40% on flat if castle mp cost remains at 2 and village def at 40%.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 15th, 2018, 4:45 pm

Caladbolg wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 4:00 pm
castle -1 mp
coastal reef -1 mp
deep water +10% def
flat +10% def
forest +10% def
fungus +10% def
hills +10% def
mountains -2 mp
sand +10% def
shallow water +10% def
swamp +10% def
village +10% def
Some comments on this based on lore...

The improvements to deep water strike me as a little dubious. That would actually make the naga better than merfolk in deep water. This may be only my interpretation, but I see merfolk as being more at home in deeper water while the nagas are more at home in shallower waters (though the merfolk don't live in the deep water). So I'd say drop the +10% deep water defense relative to the naga fighter.

On the other hand, I don't mind the improvement in shallow water. Although the mainline merfolk and naga perform the same there, I think it's reasonable that some nagas could do better than the merfolk. The same argument applies to the coastal reef movement buff and the swamp buff.

For nagas that live near a desert, it definitely makes sense to improve their defense on sand, so I'm in favour of that. I wouldn't be against even improving their movement on sand.

I agree on the mountain improvement not making a lot of sense. I'd say leave mountains at 5 mp like the naga fighter (assuming the unit actually has 5 mp, of course).

For the castle, village, forest, flat, and hills improvements, I'm pretty ambivalent. I can see nagas doing decently well in a forest, at least. I can also see an argument for the flat improvement based on the sand improvement (flat probably shouldn't be 20% worse than sand).
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 15th, 2018, 9:56 pm

For #1 then, how about:

Code: Select all

terrain defense,movement costs:
    castle=50%,1
    coastal reef=70%,1
    deep water=50%,1
    flat=40%,2
    forest=50%,3
    fungus=50%,2
    hills=50%,3
    mountains=40%,5
    sand=50%,1
    shallow water=70%,1
    swamp=70%,1
    village=40%,1
Deep water is back to 50% dodge, mountains are back to costing 5 MP, and villages are back to 40%.

For flat now being 40%, my thought was that I didn't want it to have less than 40% on one of the most common terrains while also now having negative physical resistances.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by name » December 15th, 2018, 10:21 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 14th, 2018, 2:33 am
Chakram is indeed a cool weapon (I don't think I like "blade ring" though)
Could it just be called Chakram, I wonder? Or does it need to have a more purely english language based name for the translation process?
If the latter case, how about "ring blade", "throwing ring", "ring discus" or "razor ring"?
Caladbolg wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 4:00 pm
#4 is interesting but seems very weak in terms of damage output so I'm not sure if it would be able to fight competently against other factions' water control units.
What if it had 3x5 ranged (chakram)? Or 3x3 melee (fangs)? Or both?
Doing either will increase its damage output by 3 (and doing both will increase it by 6).

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 15th, 2018, 11:26 pm

name wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 10:21 pm
What if it had 3x5 ranged (chakram)? Or 3x3 melee (fangs)? Or both?
Doing either will increase its damage output by 3 (and doing both will increase it by 6).
I feel like 3x5 ranged and 3x3 melee poison would be better balanced for water control. :) Thematically I personally still prefer a spear to fangs though.

What would you say are the main advantages of a Naga which is more powerful on ranged attacks than melee?
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 9:56 pm
For #1 then, how about:

Code: Select all

terrain defense,movement costs:
    castle=50%,1
    coastal reef=70%,1
    deep water=50%,1
    flat=40%,2
    forest=50%,3
    fungus=50%,2
    hills=50%,3
    mountains=40%,5
    sand=50%,1
    shallow water=70%,1
    swamp=70%,1
    village=40%,1
I agree the combination of flat less than 40 and negative resistances would be a lot. However many units have 40% on flat so it is average as a land unit except for the higher movement costs. Though it is looking pretty decent as far as the stats go now.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 15th, 2018, 11:32 pm

name wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 10:21 pm
Could it just be called Chakram, I wonder? Or does it need to have a more purely english language based name for the translation process?
If the latter case, how about "ring blade", "throwing ring", "ring discus" or "razor ring"?
That's not an easy question/ I think something involving "discus" would be best if it needs to be indisputably English, but "chakram" may be identifiable enough to just use directly.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by name » December 16th, 2018, 2:20 am

The_Gnat wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 11:26 pm
I feel like 3x5 ranged and 3x3 melee poison would be better balanced for water control. :)
That will make it a bit better overall than the merman hunter of the rebels. Which isn't necessarily a problem since the game is balanced faction-vs-faction rather than unit-vs-unit. And the merman hunter may be a bit under powered anyway.

There is also the option of raising the gold by one and/or lowering the hit points by two to compensate a bit for the better attacks.
The_Gnat wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 11:26 pm
Thematically I personally still prefer a spear to fangs though.
These are the thematic advantages I find fangs have over a spear:

1) Spears and tridents are heavily used by mermen already.
2) Spears are pretty mundane.
3) Naga are highly serpentine, and in mythology half cobra (probably king cobra). Wesnoth's naga likely do have fangs.
4) Fangs deliver poison just as well underwater. Poison would wash off a spear without a lot of crazy explanation to the contrary.
5) The weak but poisonous melee attack of fangs combined with a nonpoisonous but highly immediately damaging ranged attack is unique.
The_Gnat wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 11:26 pm
What would you say are the main advantages of a Naga which is more powerful on ranged attacks than melee?
There is already a powerful naga melee fighter; the one employed by the northerners. This would be more like the naga equivalent of the merman hunter. That is, a more missile oriented aquatic unit, but taken in a different direction with the lighter but faster exotic chakram attacks and weaker but poisonous melee. And as a naga, naturally better mobility but weaker staying power than a mermish.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 11:32 pm
name wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 10:21 pm
Could it just be called Chakram, I wonder? Or does it need to have a more purely english language based name for the translation process?
If the latter case, how about "ring blade", "throwing ring", "ring discus" or "razor ring"?
That's not an easy question. I think something involving "discus" would be best if it needs to be indisputably English, but "chakram" may be identifiable enough to just use directly.
I guess it can just be chakram for now. The name of the unit might also work to help describe the weapon.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 16th, 2018, 3:29 am

name wrote:
December 16th, 2018, 2:20 am
These are the thematic advantages I find fangs have over a spear:


8) That sounds like really good reasoning for fangs over a spear. And thinking about it further I definitely can see the advantages to having a more powerful ranged attack. And as previously pointed out more strikes for poison makes the unit more viable.

Overall I actually think I support Pentaractogon's suggestions for hp and movement most but you have convinced me that your proposed attacks would be best.

So here is the new Ringcaster (a combination of all the previous ideas) with the noted reduced hp and increased cost.

Code: Select all

name=Naga Ringcaster
hp=28
xp=35
cost=17
moves=7
alignment=liminal

Resistances:
Impact=-20%
Pierce=-10%
Blade=-10%

attack1:
    name= fangs
    range=melee
    type=pierce
    damage=3
    strikes=3
    specials=poison

attack2:
    name= chakram
    range=ranged
    type=blade
    damage=3
    strikes=5

terrain defense,movement costs:
    castle=50%,1
    coastal reef=70%,1
    deep water=50%,1
    flat=40%,2
    forest=50%,3
    fungus=50%,2
    hills=50%,3
    mountains=40%,5
    sand=50%,1
    shallow water=70%,1
    swamp=70%,1
    village=40%,1
Edit: slightly weaker resistances. If it is too weak against the loyalists it can be changed to 0% for blade and pierce.
Last edited by The_Gnat on December 16th, 2018, 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 16th, 2018, 4:16 am

And, just to confirm, it would have normal resistances(0% for everything)?
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