Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 11th, 2018, 4:31 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 6:53 pm
I think the idea is that mushrooms are used a lot in MP maps in weird ways, so it actually would make a difference outside of campaigns. But I could be wrong.
Valid point. Any arguments against this?

If not I see no harm in this slight buff.
name wrote:
December 10th, 2018, 6:09 pm
Move points: 6
No terrain penalties
I definitely support your overall stats of he Jinni and can see it fitting into a really interesting and valuable role in the falcon with fire (I am still opposed to arcane).

As for 6mp I think that is good and gives flexibility but wonder how that fits in with the cost of 25? Do you know what the other high priced units are in mainline and are they all Scouts?

I am basically trying to establish if the price of the gryphon is a compensation for the fact it gaurentees so many villages. And if that is the case, a unit like this may not justify a price that high. Extra damage costs notably less than abilities and high mp.
name wrote:
December 10th, 2018, 6:09 pm
Fire 16x1 Magic
I am still wondering about this. Mainly the difference this unit will make against the undead compared to other factions without a fire vulnerability and the potential of creating a mismatch in some cases.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 11th, 2018, 7:39 am

name wrote:
December 10th, 2018, 6:09 pm
Alignment: Lawful or Neutral
I believe there was generally agreement that we shouldn't be re-adding a third alignment back to the faction, in which case it should be Lawful.

edit-
Also, how would the knalgan alliance fight this unit? I get that it's expensive, but the dwarves have no magic or marksman to hit its default 50% defense and no cold or arcane, and it has magical on both its attacks which counters the non-dwarf units pretty hard, as well as having a very good movetype while IIRC one of the problems the dwarves suffer from is low mobility. 50% pierce resistance also makes the thunderer pretty useless against it, and the griffon rider would be pretty terrible against it as well.

Northerners would have similar problems, I'd imagine, especially if the Jinn (being a spirit) isn't poisonable.
name wrote:
December 10th, 2018, 6:09 pm
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 6:11 pm
This wouldn't be quite true of the naga line's stats I posted above - they would not be as effective as land units, but they could certainly leave the water and fight on land without giving free xp away either.
To be honest, those stats probably take the power of the unit too far, from both the perspective of general balance and it making sense as a naga unit. The very high terrain defenses, combined with the new positively-imbalanced liminal acting as a damage booster, combined with a low price for what you get. The negative resistances used to try and counter balance the strengths also seem odd for a naga (maybe because of their thick scaled appearance).
I wouldn't really be opposed to increasing the price to 17 or 18, or reducing its melee damage to 5 as The_Gnat suggested below, but it's also a mobile, squishy unit with only two strikes to inflict poison, which makes it less reliable than either of the other poison-inflicting units(orcish assassin, ghoul).

The lower resistances could be fairly easily explained - they have thinner scales that makes them lighter and quicker than other naga - but it's also generally not great to infer too much about resistances from appearance. The fencer having such poor physical resistances while the mage has 0% for all physical resistances makes no sense based on appearance either, for example.
The_Gnat wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 4:18 am
name wrote:
December 10th, 2018, 6:09 pm
those stats probably take the power of the unit too far, from both the perspective of general balance and it making sense as a naga unit.
I agree to some extent. I have been running tests with the Naga unit and have found it to be reasonably affordable and effective with current naga movement costs and defences. The new proposed defences are interesting but I feel that they miss the point of the naga as a water dwelling creature and are almost too encouraging for land use.

As I understood the purpose is water control, if that purpose has changed or been adapted that is fine but I believe it should be ensured that it doesn't become OP.

I would not support a price increase. Also I don't really like the whole model of increasing defences and worsening resistances. I would personally prefer the current naga defences and movement costs were used. With perhaps minor adjustment on sand? I understand thematically all the changes can be explained but I believe balance is the top focus. Perhaps reduce the melee to 5 damage and remove the defences?
My goal was water control, but I also wanted it to be a quicker-but-squishier unit. Its resistances could also be made worse, to bring it more in line with other such units(orcish assassin, fencer, thief), but it also already has far worse defenses on land than those units do.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 11th, 2018, 1:56 pm

Maybe make it not have magic on both attacks? I don't think any other unit does this.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by josteph » December 11th, 2018, 6:08 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 1:56 pm
Maybe make it not have magic on both attacks? I don't think any other unit does this.
THoT's Dwarvish Loremaster does.

edit: And Liberty's Shadow Mage.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by name » December 11th, 2018, 6:48 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 4:31 am
Any arguments against this?
A mushroom forest is about the antithesis of a desert as mushrooms grow in damp, dark environments. It will be counter intuitive that desert infantry, unusual in their inability to seek cover in an ordinary forest due to their inexperience with it, will gain advantage from a forest of moisture and darkness loving mushrooms.

Also, the mushrooms are already used as a special advantage for certain (possibly less mobility inclined in general) factions, notably UD, which DF do not need a further special advantage over.
The_Gnat wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 4:31 am
As for 6mp I think that is good and gives flexibility but wonder how that fits in with the cost of 25? Do you know what the other high priced units are in mainline and are they all Scouts?
I am basically trying to establish if the price of the gryphon is a compensation for the fact it gaurentees so many villages. And if that is the case, a unit like this may not justify a price that high. Extra damage costs notably less than abilities and high mp.
The gryphon costs 24 and the horseman costs 23. After that comes the 21 gold drake burner (a mobile enough unit but certainly not a scout).

The jinni does already have mobility perhaps as good as the horseman's (loyalist cavalry in particular suffer punishing terrain mobility penalties) and better than the drake burner. It also has the abilities of two magic attacks. But if testing reveals the price is still too high then it can be lowered by as much as 5 gold and still fit the theme of a powerful but rare level 1 unit.
The_Gnat wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 4:31 am
I am still wondering about this. Mainly the difference this unit will make against the undead compared to other factions without a fire vulnerability and the potential of creating a mismatch in some cases.
In theory, this should be hard countered by the negative 50% cold resistance (cold vulnerability). The very cost effective and commonplace dark adept has magical 10x2 cold and no vulnerability to fire.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 7:39 am
I believe there was generally agreement that we shouldn't be re-adding a third alignment back to the faction, in which case it should be Lawful.
The third alignment was never the issue with the falcon; it was the everything else that was wrong with it. We can surely start off with a lawful jinni, but neutral is a good backup in case there is some balance issue that surfaces through testing.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 7:39 am
Also, how would the knalgan alliance fight this unit? I get that it's expensive, but the dwarves have no magic or marksman to hit its default 50% defense and no cold or arcane, and it has magical on both its attacks which counters the non-dwarf units pretty hard, as well as having a very good movetype while IIRC one of the problems the dwarves suffer from is low mobility. 50% pierce resistance also makes the thunderer pretty useless against it, and the griffon rider would be pretty terrible against it as well.
This is a good point. The idea is its general lack of resistance to commonplace blade and impact weapons, combined with low HP, combined with the high price make it countered by ordinary dwarvish melee fighters. If that is not enough, I think a reduction of HP or actual negative resistances to blade and impact will be in order.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 7:39 am
Northerners would have similar problems, I'd imagine, especially if the Jinn (being a spirit) isn't poisonable.
Same as above but this does raise the important issue of whether or not we want (thematically) for the jinni to be immune to poison, drain and plague attacks or not?

The mythology is actually a bit open on this. By some stories the jinn are something like living creatures (rather than spirits) with mortality, something akin to biological needs, etc. Yet their bodies are made of clean burning fire or lightning (or other electrical phenomena as observed and interpreted by pre-industrial civilizations) or something similar in appearance to these.

So you could say they are alive and mortal and perhaps even "natural", but in a very extraordinary way.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 1:56 pm
Maybe make it not have magic on both attacks? I don't think any other unit does this.
That is partly the idea, to make the jinni stand out in this way. Its instinct for magic is such that it can do this even at level one (the Elvish Shyde and Slyph also have magical melee + ranged attacks but they are both high level).

The option is available to remove magical from its melee if it causes fundamental balance problems, but it would be nice to first try and hang on to such a feature by counterbalancing with other thematically interesting weaknesses.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 7:39 am
The fencer having such poor physical resistances while the mage has 0% for all physical resistances makes no sense based on appearance either, for example.
I think we should aim a little higher than that, since such nuanced differences are very easy to miss even after years of playing the game.

For that example specifically, the fencer probably should have its negative resistances removed in trade for a reduction of hit points and some other features. The fencer is a very rarely used unit, so it maybe could get an improvement through this process anyway. But it is a difficult situation because its role is generally already filled by the horseman.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 7:39 am
My goal was water control, but I also wanted it to be a quicker-but-squishier unit. Its resistances could also be made worse, to bring it more in line with other such units(orcish assassin, fencer, thief), but it also already has far worse defenses on land than those units do.
Why not give it defense/resistance stats similar to the existing naga, but with weaker attacks balanced by the poison ability. It would be taking a similar approach to poisoning as the ghoul, just a bit more mobile and less tanky than that.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 12th, 2018, 7:45 am

name wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 6:48 pm
The_Gnat wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 4:31 am
Any arguments against this?
A mushroom forest is about the antithesis of a desert as mushrooms grow in damp, dark environments. It will be counter intuitive that desert infantry, unusual in their inability to seek cover in an ordinary forest due to their inexperience with it, will gain advantage from a forest of moisture and darkness loving mushrooms.

Also, the mushrooms are already used as a special advantage for certain (possibly less mobility inclined in general) factions, notably UD, which DF do not need a further special advantage over.
Honestly, the least intuitive thing is that they're some of the only units in the mainline eras that don't get improved defense on forest/mushroom groves that aren't cavalry. That they get improved defense on sand instead, while fitting thematically, is mostly useless on most mainline maps - there are far more mushrooms or forest tiles than there are sand tiles by a long shot.
name wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 6:48 pm
Why not give it defense/resistance stats similar to the existing naga, but with weaker attacks balanced by the poison ability. It would be taking a similar approach to poisoning as the ghoul, just a bit more mobile and less tanky than that.
I was trying for something with a little more variety than that, honestly.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm

first of all, sorry for it took me such a long time to reply to some things here - we were pretty busy thinking about all of your comments.
Fungus 40% of 50%
at the very beginning we thought that the 50% fungus would be a nice trait and would help DF in certain situation in a fairly balanced matter. But the reasons lorewise to not 50% on fungus is understandable after user "name" brought up some valid points against it and enforcing the lore. Now we would have to decide what is more important, Lore or Balance?

Alternativly, there are options to buff it only for , lets say only liminal units, or maybe even more sustainable for the lore - we'd buff the fungus def only for the herbalist, since fungi and herbs is that what he probably deals with the most (even if fungi are rare in deserts/dunes).
Ideally, we could ignore the buff for any other unit in DF so we can buff the herbalists def from 60% instead of just 50%!
Naga Stats
after some time of considerations, penta's current suggestion for the poisonous naga seems a bit unblanaced, some might say over powered. it not only would be stronger than any other water unit currently in the default mp factions, but it would make DF dominate any map with a certain amount of water which is not what we want, right?
name wrote:
December 10th, 2018, 6:09 pm
Default terrain defense: 50%
Sand: 70%
Cave: 60%
Frozen Defense: 30%
Swamp Defense: 30%
Shallow Water: 20%
Deep Water: 10%

Hit points: 28
Pierce: +50%
Fire: +50%
Cold: -50%
Arcane: -10%

Alignment: Lawful or Neutral
Melee: Fire 2x6 Magic
Range: Fire 16x1 Magic (alternatively Arcane)
the suggested defense for a Jini unit are totally, however everything else is not what would enrich this unit to be unique and useful in terms of gameplay and balance. First of all, it would be a copy of the ghost movetype with (maybe) better attacks, but worse defense and even worse resistances, which is somethign we all agree we do not want.

(1) -50% cold makes it utterly fragil for a 25g unit and would be completely useless in drake/UD matchup.
(2 )adding a third alignment (neutral) is agreed upon to make DF unnecessary complex. Lawful or Liminal would be preferred.
(3) a high dmg one strike attack seems not only seems not special because of the dwarf thunderer but it will cause problem in balance too, especially if it is magic dmg type.
(4) melee fire / ranged arcane is the most preferred version. It eases up balancing and wouldn't make the burner unit useless.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by name » December 12th, 2018, 7:21 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 7:45 am
Honestly, the least intuitive thing is that they're some of the only units in the mainline eras that don't get improved defense on forest/mushroom groves that aren't cavalry.
That is because they look so human and regular. Even dwarves look a little bit exotic and are so much associated with the mountain and underground world and so generally clumsy seeming that you can accept/remember they are useless when it comes to forest tactics.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 7:45 am
That they get improved defense on sand instead, while fitting thematically, is mostly useless on most mainline maps - there are far more mushrooms or forest tiles than there are sand tiles by a long shot.
That is partly because sand works to boost mobility focused drakes on small maps where mobility is not so advantageous. On large maps drakes already have the natural advantage so you see less of sand tiles. (The inverse is likewise true for mobility impaired knalgans and hill/mountain tiles.) Since the khalifate were developed as a mobility oriented faction long after the drakes were mainlined, they pretty much had to try and fit into the same "slot" in the balanced map pool's design as intended for the drakes.

All of this might also be true of water tiles to some extent, as they offer drakes a mobility advantage over other factions.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 7:45 am
I was trying for something with a little more variety than that, honestly.
Okay, fair enough. Let me throw out two more revised poison naga ideas. Both start with the base naga stats but trade 40%->60% sand for 50%->40% deep water defense (so just a tad bit more land applicable). Where they differ from each other is in their attacks:

Naga Spitter
Melee: Blade 6x2 First Strike (Urumi / Blade Whip)
Ranged: Impact 2x1 Poison (Venomous Spit)

Naga Ringcaster
Melee: Pierce 2x2 Poison (Venomous Bite)
Ranged: Blade 3x4 (Chakram / Blade Ring)

The urumi and chakram are very unique weapons from india (where the naga myth originates). The long reaching urumi is especially fearsome to the imagination. The weak base damage of the poison attacks is so that they are not too strong against other water units, which might have a more difficult time reaching a place they can be cured. Otherwise the base damage of these poison attacks can be doubled or further increased.
ghype wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm
Now we would have to decide what is more important, Lore or Balance?
The two do not necessarily have to be in conflict in this case. Like the drakes, the DF favor mobility over good terrain defenses. So instead of holding in a bad situation, they should more likely just retreat or redeploy to put pressure somewhere else on the map (the former if the enemy has a time of day advantage, the latter if the enemy has a localized numerical advantage).

What satisfies both lore and balance is having more mobility rather than more defenses. The jinni, a magic carpet rider, the dune rider movement increase are all thematically (lorewise) good solutions for improving mobility.
ghype wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm
First of all, it would be a copy of the ghost movetype with (maybe) better attacks, but worse defense and even worse resistances, which is somethign we all agree we do not want.
The ghost and the drake glider have fairly similar move types. But the jinni is much closer to the gryphon or bat in that it is a true flyer that is not slowed down by water like the ghost and drake glider are. However, now at 6 move points, it is a good deal slower than these other units in most circumstances.

The jinni's attacks are actually much more powerful than the ghost's due to the much stronger ranged attack and both attacks being magical (the ghost has no magical attacks).

Pentarctagon seemed to think the jinni's defenses (combined with its other stats) make it too strong in a couple of match ups. The negative resistances are actually a counterbalance to this (but may not be weakness enough even as they are now).

Finally the jinni has considerably more hit points than the ghost. But really, they are very different unit designs meant to fill different roles so I am not sure why we are comparing them so closely together.
ghype wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm
(1) -50% cold makes it utterly fragil for a 25g unit and would be completely useless in drake/UD matchup.
That is mostly the idea, as those match ups do not benefit from having the DF any stronger. In fact, a number of testers said the DF are too strong against the drakes. We can walk this back to -40% or more as needed, but the goal is to have a unit which specifically does not do well in a match up with the drakes and does not put the UD match up out of balance in favor of the DF. When/if the burner loses its fire melee, then the jinni can afford to be a bit stronger against UD, of course.
ghype wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm
(3) a high dmg one strike attack seems not only seems not special because of the dwarf thunderer but it will cause problem in balance too, especially if it is magic dmg type.
Can you be more specific about the balance issue you foresee with this?
ghype wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm
(4) melee fire / ranged arcane is the most preferred version. It eases up balancing and wouldn't make the burner unit useless.
I understand the opposite to be true; arcane does great harm to the drakes and limited harm to the loyalists. That is the exact opposite of what we want according to the balance testing feedback. DF are desired to be stronger against loyalists and somewhat weaker to drakes if anything.

Fire does good harm to loyalists and very limited harm to drakes.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 12th, 2018, 8:50 pm

name wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 7:21 pm
2x1 Poison (Venomous Spit)
Unfortunately while unique I believe your stats take the naga unit too far the other direction and make it under powered. I personally believe the current stat proposals are not terrible and would prefer minor changes rather than an entire rewrite because it is not that significantly over powered.

Firstly while I believe usefulness on land is valuable I believe that the primary purpose of the naga can not be forgotten and without at least one decent damage attack I believe it would fail in that role. Secondly I believe poison is an important part of this unit not only for uniqueness but also allowing it to play a role in the DF.

So:

1. I don't think I can support a poison attack with only 1 strike because it is not effective enough at poisoning to really bring that to the faction, it also is far less effective against units with better defences virtually making it useless against particular matchups. To compare the ghoul and assassin have 3 strikes and the assassin even has marksman.

2. While I agree a buff is necessary I don't believe increased presence outside water is. The problem is that people are trying to make a water and land unit which is impossible without making it OP. Water control is the key goal so if we nerf it too much so it can fight outside water it will be slaughtered by devoted water units and devoted land units and we suddenly have another falcon.

3. I like the ideas for the new weapons but I don't believe first strike is necessary. If we are trying to balance this unit I see no need to give it more weapon specials.

Overall I would propose go back to the original current naga stats. Worsen resistances and make the melee 5-2 poison and I believe it would be largely balanced. If it is not it could be further increased in price.
ghype wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm
buff the herbalists def from 60% instead of just 50%!


I think that is an interesting idea but I wonder if the Herbalist needs any buff?
name wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 7:21 pm
What satisfies both lore and balance is having more mobility rather than more defenses
I agree :)
name wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 7:21 pm
Finally the jinni has considerably more hit points than the ghost. But really, they are very different unit designs meant to fill different roles so I am not sure why we are comparing them so closely together.
The two units are clearly different but the question should not be so much about similarities but instead balance.

I think it is important first to point out that the Jinni is supposed to be more powerful than other units because of its high price. A good parallel is probably the Drake Burner which is not a scout but has both powerful melee and range and is a quite powerful unit. However, the Jinni is even more expensive than the Burner and so I believe a extremely powerful unit is merited.

I don't see the issue as much of bring OP buy instead being unbalanced due to its role in certain match ups.
name wrote:
December 12th, 2018, 7:21 pm
understand the opposite to be true; arcane does great harm to the drakes and limited harm to the loyalists. That is the exact opposite of what we want according to the balance testing feedback
Yes I believe arcane would worsen the match up imbalance.
name wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 6:48 pm
The very cost effective and commonplace dark adept has magical 10x2 cold and no vulnerability to fire.
That is a good point. So potentially the cold vulnerablanility is a solution to the aforementioned problem.
name wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 6:48 pm
for the jinni to be immune to poison, drain and plague attacks or not
I would say no initially but if the Jinni is too good against undead or orcs that could be implemented. Also I believe that would be quite interesting thematically.
name wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 6:48 pm
That is partly the idea, to make the jinni stand out in this way. Its instinct for magic is such that it can do this even at level one
I agree but I do see 1 strike magical as a potential OP against all units with good defences. Outlaws, assassin, elves in general, flying creatures.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Xalzar » December 13th, 2018, 12:03 am

Fungus 40% of 50%
At first I thought that buffing the defense on mushrooms was non-sensical, but now I'm quite indifferent and I think that if there is really a balance reason for it that could be done. After all, even in lore, the units only defend in the mushrooms forest, they do not live there; surely the giant fungal trunks could be beneficial while defending from attacks. Also, movement remains quite slow in that terrain so it's not like the DF suddenly have become masters of damp shroomy terrains.
Maybe it's best to try balancing the faction without this buff and then eventually adding it at the end? :hmm:
Naga Stats
As the Gnat said, one single poisonous attack is not reliable enough. There's already history with the Orc Assassin which had more than one attack and even then it was deemed unreliable and buffed with marksman.
An amphibian unit could be interesting to test, but thematically I think it's not what I'd expect from the DF faction. This is not necessarily a bad thing, subverting expectations could be interesting too. :mrgreen:
I like the idea of exotic weapons.
Jinn Stats
About attacks, I can say for sure that two "double-fire-attack" units are too much, even if their role is different. And arcane it's surely quite more delicate for balance against some factions as it has been mentioned.

Since I believe we're aiming to represent one of the original depiction of the Jinn (in particular this one type), what about a non-fire, non-arcane ranged attack?
It could be a sort of "windslash" with blade damage (I thought even of "enchanted daggers" but then I read that Jinns fear iron - an interesting lore snippet which we could possibly use in establishing the relationship between DF and them), or instead "sandstone shards" with pierce, possibly magical.
Or it could be a "sand storm" attack with impact damage, swarm special like the UtBS Dust Devil.
Melee in my idea remains fire-based, magical or not.
What's your opinion, could be this the solution or is it too "grounded" and similar to a simple "sand elemental" for our tastes?

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 13th, 2018, 1:35 am

Could someone post a full set of stats for what they think the naga should be, at least for the level one? I'm getting somewhat lost with all the various suggestions on what could be tweaked or redone across multiple posts by multiple people.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 13th, 2018, 3:25 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 1:35 am
Could someone post a full set of stats for what they think the naga should be, at least for the level one? I'm getting somewhat lost with all the various suggestions on what could be tweaked or redone across multiple posts by multiple people.
Naga lvl 1:

Code: Select all

name=Naga Poisoner
hp=28
cost=17   #1 higher cost
moves=7
alignment=liminal

movetype=naga   #all defenses and movement costs the same by as the default naga
    
attack1:
    name=spear
    specials=poison
    type=pierce
    strikes=2
    damage=5  # 1 less damage
    

attack2:
    name=bow
    type=pierce
    strikes=3
    damage=3

resistances:
    arcane=0%
    blade=-10%
    cold=0%
    fire=0%
    impact=-20%
    pierce=-10%

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 13th, 2018, 6:26 am

The_Gnat wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 3:25 am
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 1:35 am
Could someone post a full set of stats for what they think the naga should be, at least for the level one? I'm getting somewhat lost with all the various suggestions on what could be tweaked or redone across multiple posts by multiple people.
Naga lvl 1:

Code: Select all

name=Naga Poisoner
hp=28
cost=17   #1 higher cost
moves=7
alignment=liminal

movetype=naga   #all defenses and movement costs the same by as the default naga
    
attack1:
    name=spear
    specials=poison
    type=pierce
    strikes=2
    damage=5  # 1 less damage
    

attack2:
    name=bow
    type=pierce
    strikes=3
    damage=3

resistances:
    arcane=0%
    blade=-10%
    cold=0%
    fire=0%
    impact=-20%
    pierce=-10%
That seems somewhat underpowered to me then, honestly. It's a squishy, somewhat expensive unit with the least reliable poison attack in the mainline factions.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

Caladbolg
Posts: 196
Joined: January 1st, 2016, 4:40 pm
Location: Hopelessly trapped within the Submachine

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Caladbolg » December 13th, 2018, 12:41 pm

Xalzar wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 12:03 am
Since I believe we're aiming to represent one of the original depiction of the Jinn (in particular this one type), what about a non-fire, non-arcane ranged attack?
It could be a sort of "windslash" with blade damage (I thought even of "enchanted daggers" but then I read that Jinns fear iron - an interesting lore snippet which we could possibly use in establishing the relationship between DF and them), or instead "sandstone shards" with pierce, possibly magical.
Or it could be a "sand storm" attack with impact damage, swarm special like the UtBS Dust Devil.
Melee in my idea remains fire-based, magical or not.
What's your opinion, could be this the solution or is it too "grounded" and similar to a simple "sand elemental" for our tastes?
I'm against Jinn having arcane, and, as you said, with only fire it might seem too similar to Burner, so I'd be ok with this. The existing sprite looks more like a sand spirit, and fire attack could be retained on melee (especially if Burner loses fire melee) for flavor. If fire Jinn are really wanted, they could be an optional higher lvl advancement. If we go with sand Jinn, 6mp + (ambush on sand) might be cool.
However, I'm also ok with fire Jinn, so idk. In any case, Jinn fearing iron would be a nice lore snippet to have, as Wesnoth fairies also supposedly fear iron.

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ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 13th, 2018, 12:59 pm

Caladbolg wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 12:41 pm
I'm against Jinn having arcane
I assume this is where you expressed yourself wrongly.
Caladbolg wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 12:41 pm
The existing sprite ...
No matter how the existing sprite looks like. Either the sprite will be adjusted to our needs or a new one will be made. we shouldn't be constrained by sprites limitation, but focus on what makes sense balance wise


However, I'm also ok with fire Jinn, so idk. In any case, Jinn fearing iron would be a nice lore snippet to have, as Wesnoth fairies also supposedly fear iron.
[/quote]
ranged arcane Jini delicate for balancing
This argument keeps popping up. We are talking 200+ comments about dunefolk balancing but are too afraid/too lazy to balance some arcane attacks?
It doesnt seem to make sense to me.

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