Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Locked
User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 3rd, 2018, 9:05 am

what about blowing pipes? i know it sounds pretty nomardic but if the naga would have a spear made of the spin of some sea creature, why couldn he have blowing pipes?

Also I dont know how OP the net on the naga really would be. if it is 4-2 slow ranged that he could
become a really usefull unit, a resilient support unit if ee give him 5-3 or 6-3 melee.
Last edited by ghype on December 3rd, 2018, 9:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
The_Gnat
Posts: 2078
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 3:06 am
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 3rd, 2018, 9:08 am

ghype wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 9:05 am
what about blowing pipes? i know it sounds pretty nomardic but if the naga would have a spear made of the spin of some sea creature, why couldn he have blowing pipes?
They wouldn't work at all under water though because of resistance to motion.

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 3rd, 2018, 9:29 am

The_Gnat wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 9:08 am
They wouldn't work at all under water though because of resistance to motion.
Seems we reached a dead end if we do not clarify what kind of weapons work in which way.
When I mentioned the bolas earlier, obviously they were supposed to be thrown on the surface , not under water. Same for the blowing pipes.
I agree, Bolas getting wet make them much harder to swing, but if the muscle force is enough, that weight of the absorbed water would only increase momentum and hence the impact energy. For blowing pipes the only difference would that the water could get into the pipe. So what? in order to shoot the projectile you need pressure and it doesn't matter if the energy comes from compressed water or air. I might even say that compressing water with "lung" power (if that whats nagas have), would be more pleasant for nagas then compressing air. But I don't know much naga anatomy.

I mean come on, ... the net is from on surface too, and that net (from netcaster) would get just as wet as the bolas. The spear trougher throughs its spear on the surface too. So i dont know why these arguments of "that weapon would not work underwater" pop up?


EDIT: what if we give naga both?
4-3 melee poison (spine spear)
4-2 ranged slow (net)
this way this naga unit becomes an essential part of DF and you likely try to exploit water areas as much as you can.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1569
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 3rd, 2018, 1:42 pm

Don't remove the shield bash! :( It's cool!

Ghype, the reason for arguing about whether the weapon works underwater is because nagas are amphibious. Some of their fighting is undoubtedly done entirely submerged. Thus, it's important that their weapons will work underwater.

I'm not sure whether blowpipes would work underwater, but The_Gnat's explanation of why they wouldn't doesn't sound right to me.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 4098
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 3rd, 2018, 2:07 pm

In my mind, nets would work because things can get caught/tangled in them (hence the slow). Spear throwing I'm not so sure about, but that unit at least also uses the spears for its melee attack. Any kind of purely ranged attack is somewhat questionable though, simply because water is so much denser than air and has much higher friction - darts could, I guess, maybe work, since they're so small and thin, but I can't imagine bolas would go more than a few feet underwater.

I'm not sure about putting slow and poison on the same level 1 unit, though.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

User avatar
Edwylm
Posts: 165
Joined: August 24th, 2015, 11:18 pm

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Edwylm » December 3rd, 2018, 2:31 pm

Some other range attacks could be crossbow/bows, harpoon gun, echo location "able to stun prey", electric attacks "also able to stun prey", or some sort of poison spit attack.
bolas could be made with rocks or metal so water absorption wouldn't be a issue. But it would be far less effective than a net due to surface area in which your enemy can be caught. why a net works is mainly do to surface area and adding weights to it so it sinks onto your opponent.

but if you want a more complicated path you could make it that a certain range attack works for certain requirements. but if you don't want to add in a capture range attack. there are many poisons out there that paralyze so one could dip this poison on a weapon which could slow your enemy.

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 3rd, 2018, 3:05 pm

Edwylm wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 2:31 pm
so one could dip this poison on a weapon
i think that hardly work for a water unit. wouldn the poison get washed away from the water and potentially make it impotent or poison himself.
considering this, it would have a poison attack via fangs/bite or spit, which seems very uncivilised for a more advanced merfolk faction.

So maybe poison on naga is not realistic even though we like to see it having poison.

I think a bow could be just as fine. spear/blade + bow is a unique concept in it self for mainline naga.

User avatar
Edwylm
Posts: 165
Joined: August 24th, 2015, 11:18 pm

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Edwylm » December 3rd, 2018, 4:07 pm

ghype wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 3:05 pm

i think that hardly work for a water unit. wouldn the poison get washed away from the water and potentially make it impotent or poison himself.
considering this, it would have a poison attack via fangs/bite or spit, which seems very uncivilised for a more advanced merfolk faction.

I think a bow could be just as fine. spear/blade + bow is a unique concept in it self for mainline naga.
The naga hunter has poison with their bow. Also depends on how they have the poison stored. its possible to have the poison be inside the arrowhead and comes out on impact. Also it doesn't mean it can't be in a solid state poison and the blood dissolves it. Also Nagas are reptilian which biologically different poisons affect different creatures. the poison they use could be something they are immune to. "uncivilized " is perspective based could be normal for nagas but to other races be seen as uncivilized.

if you really want to be evil place living "man of war" on the arrowheads :twisted:

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 3rd, 2018, 4:15 pm

Edwylm wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 4:07 pm
The naga hunter has poison with their bow.
They aren't mainline though, aren't they?

I have nothing against poison arrows or spear tip, but we'd at least find a way to explain it in a lore-friendly way.
Edwylm wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 4:07 pm
its possible to have the poison be inside the arrowhead and comes out on impact
maybe.

still spitting, biting seems not be the naga-way to do it imo.

---
what if we say the spine/bones of that sea creature is poison to other creature on itselfs.
or the arrow heads could be made out of shards of the very same creature
maybe we connect it to the sea serpent? i recall it was venomous in wesnoth.

User avatar
Edwylm
Posts: 165
Joined: August 24th, 2015, 11:18 pm

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Edwylm » December 3rd, 2018, 7:03 pm

"They aren't mainline though, aren't they?"

they are found in Under the Burn Sun.

"what if we say the spine/bones of that sea creature is poison to other creature on itselfs"
though the spines will be the likely case as they would already be sharp and poisonous. sea urchins spines would be the safe bet to use. easy/safe way to harvest poisonous spines.

User avatar
The_Gnat
Posts: 2078
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 3:06 am
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 3rd, 2018, 8:41 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 1:42 pm
Don't remove the shield bash! :( It's cool!
I definitely agree but I believe the shield bash is under powered because it is melee and only one strike which gives a which, against melee units, gives a high likely hood of receiving full damage from the unit you attacked who you failed to slow. Furthermore against ranged units the blade master will tend to just attack because it has a powerful attack that is significantly better than the slow ability.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 2:07 pm
I'm not sure about putting slow and poison on the same level 1 unit, though.
No that would definitely be OP
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 1:42 pm
ut The_Gnat's explanation of why they wouldn't doesn't sound right to me
Sorry what u meant is that the projectile if the blow pipe, being light weight so it can be blown, would substantially decrease in speed when travelling through water. Arrows would suffer less from the because they are heavier and have more momentum. Moreover, unless naga have some ability I don't know about the force of blowing will be significantly less than that of a bow or even a bolas.
ghype wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 9:29 am
So i dont know why these arguments of "that weapon would not work underwater" pop up?


EDIT: what if we give naga both?
4-3 melee poison (spine spear)
4-2 ranged slow (net)
Yes the ' that weapon doesn't work' argument is old now. We can assume that most units the naga fights will surface and the naga will then engage.

Furthermore the Merman Net caster has both an club (large surface area) and a net. Both weapons have been argued against already. I see no reason to put the naga through a more rigorous testing than current mainline units under went.

I like gyphe's idea but I believe slow and poison is too powerful.

What about:

3-3 melee poison (ANY WEAPON)
6-2 melee (ANY OTHER WEAPON)

Movement 6 (fast but not a scout)

Hit points 28 (lower than the naga fighter, ghoul, and Merman Hunter. 1hp higher than the orcish assassin)

I don't really care if he has a ranged weapon or not but I believe there are already plenty of mixed fighters in the DF.

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 3rd, 2018, 9:07 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 8:41 pm
3-3 melee poison (ANY WEAPON)
6-2 melee (ANY OTHER WEAPON)
Movement 6 (fast but not a scout)
Hit points 28 (lower than the naga fighter, ghoul, and Merman Hunter. 1hp higher than the orcish assassin)
I am pretty much fine with this. though I don't know where the 3-3 come from.
maybe from a dagger from the same spine of sea monster?

I find a melee naga with a weaker bow totally fine too, at 3-3 bow or so. no specials.
That would be enough of unique for me to be honest.

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 4098
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 4th, 2018, 12:53 am

What about:
6-2 melee poison spear/spine
3-3 ranged bow

Movement perhaps should be 7 as well, same as the naga fighter?
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

User avatar
The_Gnat
Posts: 2078
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 3:06 am
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 4th, 2018, 2:08 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 12:53 am
What about:
6-2 melee poison spear/spine
3-3 ranged bow

Movement perhaps should be 7 as well, same as the naga fighter?
That is a better idea. 8) it is good to be consistent so 7 movement would be good.

I can see the value of a ranged attack but is it better than giving both blade and pierce melee (or it could have 3 different attacks, which would allow it to have a even more useful role against larger variety of enemy factions) ? Also do you think it would be redundant considering the number of mixed fighters in the DF.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1569
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 4th, 2018, 5:10 am

ghype wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 3:05 pm
Edwylm wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 2:31 pm
so one could dip this poison on a weapon
i think that hardly work for a water unit. wouldn the poison get washed away from the water and potentially make it impotent or poison himself.
considering this, it would have a poison attack via fangs/bite or spit, which seems very uncivilised for a more advanced merfolk faction.

So maybe poison on naga is not realistic even though we like to see it having poison.
It's true that a standard poison weapon would not work underwater (I had also thought about that, in fact; and the argument also applies to spit by the way), but that doesn't entirely rule out poison. Your instinct in suggesting fangs is a good one, but there's no need for this to lead to an "uncivilized" attack. The key is that the poison is contained at all times – just like a syringe, for example. Now, a syringe specifically won't make a good weapon; but the same principles could, I think, be applied to an actual weapon.

The other possibility that might work for an underwater-capable poison is one that is not a liquid. If the poison is solid at room temperature, and does not readily dissolve in seawater, then the spearhead could be coated in a layer of it. You'd still have to come up with a reason why it dissolves in the bloodstream when it won't dissolve in seawater, though; but it's a line of reasoning that could be considered if you wanted a naga with poison.
ghype wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 4:15 pm
Edwylm wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 4:07 pm
The naga hunter has poison with their bow.
They aren't mainline though, aren't they?
Not only are they mainline, it has been proposed to move them from UtBS to core (factionless) so that other addons can directly include them.
The_Gnat wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 8:41 pm
I definitely agree but I believe the shield bash is under powered because it is melee and only one strike which gives a which, against melee units, gives a high likely hood of receiving full damage from the unit you attacked who you failed to slow. Furthermore against ranged units the blade master will tend to just attack because it has a powerful attack that is significantly better than the slow ability.
Is there a reason why it has to be just one strike? Could it be increased to two? Just a thought.
The_Gnat wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 8:41 pm
Sorry what u meant is that the projectile if the blow pipe, being light weight so it can be blown, would substantially decrease in speed when travelling through water. Arrows would suffer less from the because they are heavier and have more momentum. Moreover, unless naga have some ability I don't know about the force of blowing will be significantly less than that of a bow or even a bolas.
Hmmm... I'm not sure. Aren't blow darts essentially needles? They should have little resistance from the water, right? I think the trouble (if any) would lie more in the propulsive force than the weight of the projectile...
The_Gnat wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 8:41 pm
Furthermore the Merman Net caster has both an club (large surface area) and a net. Both weapons have been argued against already. I see no reason to put the naga through a more rigorous testing than current mainline units under went.
I think describing a net as having a large surface area is a bit misleading. Mind you, it's not a small surface area, but... more important is how the area is distributed. On the club, it's all in one mass, and not a very streamlined mass at that, so there's high resistance from the water. On the net, it's spread out into thin strings, so even if the overall surface area is higher, the resistance is probably smaller.

EDIT: Also, the netcaster's clubs are described as "oar-like". That suggests that, unlike a typical club, they are actually somewhat streamlined. They are probably wielded more like a bladed weapon than a bludgeoning weapon, but are not sharpened and thus don't do slashing damage.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

Locked