Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Do you want this add-on on 1.14 NOW before After the Storm is ready?

Poll ended at June 14th, 2018, 5:59 am

Yes
7
32%
Hell YES
15
68%
Nah
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 22

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ForestDragon
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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by ForestDragon » June 11th, 2018, 7:21 pm

Konrad2 wrote:
June 11th, 2018, 7:09 pm
I'm pretty sure that we are still talking about IftU AMLAS.
Seems like I got a bit confused. Anyway, a bolas upgrade might be helpful in IftU too. (This should be useful for levels where there's a recruitment limit, allowing you to slow bosses without exposing healers, as galas can handle retaliation better)
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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by Sadaharu » June 12th, 2018, 1:26 am

Just to keep a coherent storyline Galas could be shown becoming a Wayfarer at the end of IftU and that'd be it. :)

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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by shadowm » June 12th, 2018, 1:42 am

Overall AtS spoilers, do NOT open if you have not completed AtS before. I’m being serious here:
Zhou wrote:
June 11th, 2018, 3:38 pm
I'd suggest changing the XP requirement to a flat 20% (would be similar to UtBS) every time you advance or at least lower the percentages. I believe that's multiplicative anyway. A 50% increase means you're probably not going to bother trying to level the unit again, just to get an AMLA.
This is a good observation (much like everything else in your post). I am actually playing around with the numbers in AtS since I realized in my last IftU playthrough that I didn’t manage to complete Elynia’s AMLA tree despite my best efforts and ended up with her requiring about 1000 XP to level up again. Somehow I seemed to remember this going much better when working on IftU 2.0.1.

As for Galas and Mal Keshar, I do intend to make Galas into a unit type that levels up using AMLAs, much like Kaleh in UtBS. I didn’t give him much priority initially for two reasons:
  • Doing so would make IftU seem even more of a UtBS copycat than it already is.
  • It would require new art for Galas
However, going forward it’s evident that without AMLAs he’s sticking out like a sore thumb amidst a cast of characters who are generally more competent than him unless you give him certain special items. Plus, AMLAs would actually provide an opportunity to remove one of said items — I’m thinking of the Ring of Swiftness from IftU S2 — as well as the blink-and-you-miss-it upgrade he gets at the very start of scenario 9 that reduces his movement cost in caves, which would work better as some kind of “spelunker” AMLA (EDIT: I just realized you already mentioned the exact same thing, oops).

Mal Keshar is a more difficult case.

He does deserve new art and I should be perfectly able to draw him a new baseframe and transplant the Ancient Lich animations. The problem is that I don’t want the player to focus on Mal Keshar at the expense of everyone else, and I don’t want him to seem weak and undeserving of his title either. A point could be made that Anlindë’s curse might force him to work harder to overcome some of the limitations it imposes over his magic.
ForestDragon wrote:
June 11th, 2018, 7:21 pm
Konrad2 wrote:
June 11th, 2018, 7:09 pm
I'm pretty sure that we are still talking about IftU AMLAS.
Seems like I got a bit confused. Anyway, a bolas upgrade might be helpful in IftU too. (This should be useful for levels where there's a recruitment limit, allowing you to slow bosses without exposing healers, as galas can handle retaliation better)
This is actually the reason the Glacial Gladius in S21 came to be. Except that it’s easy to miss its existence if you don’t go specifically out of your way to poke holes in the map, and even then the exact method to obtain it for the right unit is somewhat contrived.
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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by Sadaharu » June 12th, 2018, 2:12 am

shadowm wrote:Doing so would make IftU seem even more of a UtBS copycat than it already is.
It *is* an explicit continuation. In any event the Shaxthals and Aragwaithi and all the theological cosmogony never were part of UtBS (is there anything new in the version that came with 1.14?) so it doesn't feel like a ripoff. :)

And the only comment I can make on the Glacial Gladius is ‘Hell yes!’, btw.

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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by shadowm » June 12th, 2018, 2:56 am

Sadaharu wrote:
June 12th, 2018, 2:12 am
shadowm wrote:Doing so would make IftU seem even more of a UtBS copycat than it already is.
It *is* an explicit continuation. In any event the Shaxthals and Aragwaithi and all the theological cosmogony never were part of UtBS (is there anything new in the version that came with 1.14?) so it doesn't feel like a ripoff. :)
Well, to wit:
IftU and UtBS spoilers:
More generally, I can say with absolutely certainty that my younger self was deliberately reusing parts of UtBS’ formula in an attempt to emulate it, without having a proper understanding of why UtBS worked. Not that I would tell her to do otherwise if I could go back in time, though.
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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by Sadaharu » June 12th, 2018, 4:01 am

shadowm wrote:More generally, I can say with absolutely certainty that my younger self was deliberately reusing parts of UtBS’ formula in an attempt to emulate it,
This is what is called a loving homage. ;)
Spoilered discussion:
Spoiler:
Which proves that UtBS is a quite generic and clichéd campaign. Which, honestly, makes me love it. :)
And the same, so far, applies to IftU/AtS.

Also
Spoiler:

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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by Zhou » June 12th, 2018, 5:26 am

shadowm wrote:
June 12th, 2018, 1:42 am
"Overall AtS spoilers, do NOT open if you have not completed AtS before. I’m being serious here"
Ahh, yes of course, I didn't think about the implications that would have on AtS.
Also I didn't make it very clear, but the suggestions at the end of my last post were not specifically meant for Elynia. I was just throwing general ideas around.

I don't actually think people will "focus" on one character, at least if all the unique units are different enough and all have strenghts that others don't. Malin's strengths are that he's fairly tanky, with his mostly good resistances against physical attacks, high HP & drain attack and damage out the a**. He dies pretty easily to Chaos Invokers though and is pretty slow. I'd say making him slightly weaker at the start is completely fair, since right now he can solo the first two parts of S4, which is kind of ridiculous even for a super powerful unit like him. And if the player feeds him enough XP he's rewarded with a damage dealing powerhouse, that annihilates everyone in direct combat, but can't do anything else. The most important aspect of a high damage unit is complete incompetence with almost everything else/lack of any other abilities I'd say and at least some weakness in their defense (which he already has).
In turn of course, you could make the others even better at what they do, like having Elynia heal more than +8 (10-16?), healing right now is really slow when everyone has near 100 HP, making her even faster than she already is or giving her even more different damage types (no one has fire yet and it would be amazing vs Shaxtal).
As for Galas, going of his traits (resilient+quick) either having him become a high HP, high resistance frontliner (lvl 4 leadership, steadfast/dauntless, first strike, etc.?) or an agile Assassin like unit (poison?, backstab, skirmisher, slow, lower movement cost/more MP, etc.) with high defenses or maybe both would fit him. Since HP, resistance and defense all multiply though, that might be a little much.
I actually like the idea of items as a reward for exploring, as long as you can still enjoy the campaign without them. Right now the MP ring kind of screams "Galas is slow so take this!". They also help make units feels special and unique, like this guy:
Image
So, once everyone has AMLAs, maybe reserve them for non-hero units?
Slight spoiler on a hidden item:
slightly confused

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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by Sudipta » June 13th, 2018, 1:34 pm

Congratulations on the successful port of IftU to 1.14. A Battle For Wesnoth game does not feel complete without IftU or AtS. Now i can finally have IftU in my new 1.14 version. Best of luck on porting AtS too. ^_^

I'd also like to mention that cliches are cliches because they work. Just because something is somewhat generic doesn't mean it can't be of magnificent quality. No one can be 100% original in the 21st century.

P.S i always enjoy reading your "profound" posts in the forums 8)
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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by shadowm » June 13th, 2018, 11:48 pm

Okay, here’s a possible new AMLA tree for Elynia:
  • Strength I: hitpoints +4, melee damage +1
  • Strength II: hitpoints +4, melee strikes +1
  • Strength III: hitpoints +5
  • Strength IV: hitpoints +5, mele damage +1
  • Strength V: hitpoints +5
  • Focus I (requires Strength I): faerie fire damage +1
  • Focus II (requires Strength III): faerie fire strikes + 1
  • Focus III (requires Strength IV): ensnare strikes +1
  • Shielding I (requires Focus I): arcane resistance +10%
  • Shielding II (requires Focus II): arcane resistance +20%, impact resistance +10%
  • Shielding III (requires Focus II, Strength IV): cold resistance +10%
  • Thorns I: new attack — ranged pierce 10-2, magical+drains
  • Thorns II: thorns damage +1, strikes +1
  • Thorns III: thorns damage +1
Thorns no longer requires anything, so it’s back to being a starter AMLA. XP increases are now all by 20%. By the end she has the following stats:

HP: 95
XP: 1159
Attacks: melee 8-4 impact, ranged 9-5 impact (slows), ranged 12-5 arcane (magical), ranged 12-3 pierce (magical+drains)
Resistances: arcane 20%, blade 0%, cold 10%, fire 10%, impact 10%, pierce 0%

This is not taking into account...
Late IftU spoilers:
EDIT: Revised Shielding II/III and corrected final stats after talking with nemaara.
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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by ForestDragon » June 14th, 2018, 5:14 am

shadowm wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 11:48 pm
[*]Thorns II: thorns damage +1, strikes +1
[*]Thorns III: thorns damage +1[/list]
I think the damage increase difference between Thorns II/Thorns III is too high. I'd suggest something like this:
[*]Thorns II: thorns strikes +1
[*]Thorns III: thorns damage +2
now the total damage increase provided by Thorns II is 10 on (when previously it was 13), and Thorns III damage increase is 6 (previously it was 3)
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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by shadowm » June 14th, 2018, 5:39 am

Um.

That list I posted isn’t cumulative over the current AMLAs, so e.g. the Thorns III damage increase is not 6, it’s 1 (plus previously the AMLA didn’t even exist).
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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by ForestDragon » June 14th, 2018, 5:43 am

shadowm wrote:
June 14th, 2018, 5:39 am
That list I posted isn’t cumulative over the current AMLAs, so e.g. the Thorns III damage increase is not 6, it’s 1 (plus previously the AMLA didn’t even exist).
Sorry if I wasn't clear. By total damage increase I mean the damage increase multiplied by amount of strikes.
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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by Zhou » June 14th, 2018, 12:02 pm

Time for another spreadsheet!:
This time I didn't forget traits. Also I assume dexterous works retroactively and buffs thorns by 1 dmg or is that already factored in?

Assuming you need Shielding I to take Shielding II and so on, having the "final" and hardest to reach AMLA be only +10% cold resistance seems kind of disappointing to me. There isn't that much cold damage compared to other dmg types (at least on the enemies side) and by the point you get it, it saves you maybe 1-3 HP if she attacks a high level demon/lich and about 2-4 HP retaliation in 23B, assuming you slow appropriately. Most Verlissh don't really do enough dmg for 10% to matter. I'd honestly expect something a bit more epic :P
ForestDragon wrote:
June 14th, 2018, 5:14 am
I think the damage increase difference between Thorns II/Thorns III is too high.
I'd second this.
Thorns II increases the total damage/HP drain of the attack by more than 60%.
Thorns III is not even 10%.
slightly confused

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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by Konrad2 » June 14th, 2018, 12:53 pm

How about doing this:
Shielding III -> New Shielding I
Shielding I -> New Shielding II
Shielding II -> New Shielding III

That way the usefulness of the AMLAs climbs way better.
Last edited by Konrad2 on June 15th, 2018, 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Invasion from the Unknown 2.1.0 [Wesnoth 1.14]

Post by Sadaharu » June 15th, 2018, 2:03 am

Unless there's been a huuuge rework from the version available in BfW 1.12, I fail to see how somebody could level up Elynia's character that far, especially seeing as
Spoiler:
btw, about Galas' unit type:
Spoiler:

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