Multiplayer Replay Analysis

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Crimson_Conure
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by Crimson_Conure »

ElderofZion wrote:I think a single best advice I could give you is to retreat at night against orc and attack at day. Defense there was entirely possible if you put spear in village instead of cavalry, actually it would have been the best, but considering your play I think retreating and attacking at day might have been better for you.
But even at the cost of giving up a village? This is the part that trips me up the most. I know to retreat at night and attack at day, but like what if it gives a village up or two?

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Elder2
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by Elder2 »

Nothing, a village is a 4-6 g difference per turn, not much especially if you can later catch orc by day and get kills. And it usually is betetr than losing units yourself at night for nothing.

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Crimson_Conure
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by Crimson_Conure »

Hi! Could somebody please check this game out? My opponent started a very vicious attack on the right, but then later decided to leave the game on move 12 (so I ended up droiding the opponent side and winning very easily). I also sided my side on move 13 by mistake XD

I am wondering who has an advantage at the moment that my opponent leaves, and why he/she has the advantage (move 12). I am also looking for advice on attacking and defending, as well as unit recruiting in the beginning. Thank you in advance!
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Crimson_Conure
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by Crimson_Conure »

Hi all! I played a game that I thought was interesting, and I would greatly appreciate it if anybody here could go over the game move by move and basically annotate for me any glaring mistakes. Furthermore I would like a brief map review for this map. I quite like it. Thank you in advance! :)
I like Northerners at the moment and I would like to become a strong competent wesnoth player in general.

Computer_Player
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by Computer_Player »

Crimson_Conure wrote:
February 1st, 2018, 6:52 pm
Hi! Could somebody please check this game out? My opponent started a very vicious attack on the right, but then later decided to leave the game on move 12 (so I ended up droiding the opponent side and winning very easily). I also sided my side on move 13 by mistake XD

I am wondering who has an advantage at the moment that my opponent leaves, and why he/she has the advantage (move 12). I am also looking for advice on attacking and defending, as well as unit recruiting in the beginning. Thank you in advance!
Ok this is 1.12.6 game btw, just a heads-up for others. I will be concentrating on what you could have improved in terms of general play as well as the context of the game.

First turn, you did not recruit appropriately to capture villages / position in early game. In this map it is generally good to have full castle recruit. for first turn.

Second turn, too early HI recruit. Although it turned out that you were battling UD, but I feel without information about enemy type, recruits and positioning, getting a HI that early is a mistake, especially on this map where its a pain to switch fronts.

Turn 3-5 you should be more aggressive in left side positioning (since it seems you are setting up an attack there), in terms of position and number of units. Right cavalryman should have went left too. In general, as loyalist you want to smash the enemy as hard as possible at day with your iron fist of an army, especially versus undead. You also neglected to scout the right side, hence why you were surprised by the enemy right attack.

Turn 8 is when the right attack became full fledged, but it was being setup as early as turn 6. The way your units were positioned was that you weren't able to capitalize when undead abandoned the left side entirely, not to mention forfeiting the attack on dawn -> day -> afternoon.

Turn 9 is when you began to attack, facing a completely abandoned left front. This is also the beginning of your victory. It's going to dusk and loyalist is getting vils after all. If only undead left units to defend that side, not to mention a leader to recruit.. but instead he opted for a literal full force right attack.

Turn 11 you did well with a full retreat of right side. Anybody left would probably just died for nothing.

As long as you held your ground (not hard since his army is lacking of adepts), and your left army continued in order to deny his castle, you would have won through superior economy while his army slowly dwindled down to nothing with no reinforcements. By second night (turn 12) his army was quite overextended with nothing to show for it except some of your right vils (which were compensated by taking hi left vils anyway). Dawn comes next turn and you've got tons of HI and Horsemen and a mage going after him.

You won this man. :) GG.

Computer_Player
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by Computer_Player »

Crimson_Conure wrote:
June 26th, 2018, 4:35 am
Hi all! I played a game that I thought was interesting, and I would greatly appreciate it if anybody here could go over the game move by move and basically annotate for me any glaring mistakes. Furthermore I would like a brief map review for this map. I quite like it. Thank you in advance! :)

2p — Howling Ghost Badlands - Crimson_Conure vs. xach810 replay.gz

I like Northerners at the moment and I would like to become a strong competent wesnoth player in general.
This is a very good, balanced and dynamic map, a staple in competitive ladder play. You have good taste in maps :)

1st turn your mistake was recruiting too early. In a new map its best to survey the battlefield first. Check out the keeps, the vils, key military points and the lines of movement / force between them. Early turn, count the number of hexes from your recruit castle to vils (to see what kind of recruits you should get); and if there are multiple keeps, visualize how/if your leader will be switching between them and how it will be affecting how efficiently you will be capturing vils / projecting force.

Be sure to check out the enemy side too (especially in assymetrical maps). Check forward vils / keeps that you can target on your "turn of power " (in this case dusk -> 1st night as orc). Check where they might have trouble sending vils, and what recruitment pattern they might do and then disrupt their plans :)

1st turn then, failing the above, you ended up recruiting full castle with only 1 high mp unit. You also moved your leader away from the front by capturing the back castle. I will commend you though, high grunt recruit is a good orc recruit :)

Turn 4 is when you discover orc mirror. At this point, enemy is ahead economically due to superior starting pattern, but IMO you are ahead in terms of recruits.

Due to mirror it becomes a stalemate-positioning game, and enemy catches up in terms of recruit by turn 9

10-12 good defensive positioning, the double poison was hilarious, but a bit wasteful IMO XD You were able to lure the enemy from attacking in bad position and even get a vil.

13 I would have concentrated on killing the archer, since assassin does not do much in this match up (you could easily just recruit more units)

14 - 17 Speaking of which, not a fan of the leader move. It turned up well in the left side but your right side was collapsing. By the time you were able to recruit on turn 17, you had 75 g banked which is too much on a pitched mirror battle. You had good chance of leaderkill, but IMO not worth it.

Turn 19 your vils are captured while your recruits don't have the mp nor are positioned to counter-pillage. So that's a few turns where enemy has move vils AND your units that were left behind get destroyed without reinforcements for a while.

Turn 21 is a repeat of turn 1. You had a bit of chance here since enemy got sucky recruits, and with luck could have turned things over (killing level 2s is a good way to gain XP for example), but you also desperately needed a scout to penetrate and counter pillage. As you can see, you were out economied by the enemy more than outfought (after right front collapsed without reinforcements).

Orcs are one of the stronger and fun factions, and their gameplay dictates how other factions play. :) GG

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PastaSaucey
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by PastaSaucey »

Hey guys!
I am a amateur Wesnoth player who hopes to improve his strategy and tactical expertise. I would appreciated if an experienced player took the time to review a scenario from HttT and tell me if I played it well or poorly.

Thanks!
Think outside the quadrilateral parallelogram

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beetlenaut
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by beetlenaut »

1) This is really supposed to be about multliplayer matches as it says in the title. Campaigns are played in a totally different way.
2) You won, so it must not have been that bad, right? It's much easier to critique games you lost.
3) However, you did do something questionable that I could point out: You left valuable loyal units in positions where they were likely to get killed several times.

For example, on turn 4, Mormiru stayed in a village and attacked a spectre instead of retreating. There were two other spectres and four walking corpses that could have reached him the following turn, and they only needed half their hits to kill him. If he had taken any retaliation at all from the spectre he killed, the corpses would only have needed 3 out of 8 hits at most. And, there were a couple spectres as backup. Mormirmu had at least a 50% chance of getting killed there.

Elrian was pretty likely to be killed by revenants on turn 6 too. They needed 5 out of 8 hits to kill him, and he had 40% defense, so 5 out of 8 hits is the expected result.

What would you have done if you had lost one of those units? Replayed the turn hoping for better luck? Rage quit? Continued the campaign without them? Since you still have them at this point in the campaign, I bet it's not that last one! ;)
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The_Gnat
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by The_Gnat »

Computer_Player wrote:
June 26th, 2018, 11:06 am
This is a very good, balanced and dynamic map
Really good analysis! I learned from both of them. :) Thank you!
Creator of: The Reign of The Lords Era,The Gnats Franken Dungeon
Co-designer of the (not-wesnoth) space combat video game Planet Bounce.

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josteph
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by josteph »

beetlenaut, I referred PastaSaucy to post here since this thread has been used for SP reviews too (WurmD on page 6). If that was wrong it's my fault, not Pasta's.

PastaSaucy, in addition to beetlenaut's points, I was surprised that Kalenz had only 25XP. Loyal units that get auto-recalled are generally units you want to level quickly (so as to have more firepower) - but of course that needs to be balanced with the need to advance non-loyal units.

EZRA
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by EZRA »

I sort of assistance Turuks last outline of all the one's recorded. Everything considered, Beetlenauts rundown would come in second since I moreover do respect speed and a 'positive' communicating. That being the condition I'd think you'd need to help it with logically exceptional units like punks. Other than their town taking utmost getting two foot cushions cuts into the threat of your offense.

helling3r
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by helling3r »

Hello,
i recently played a matchup where i got beaten up as orc by loyals.
There at the basilisk map i made some serious errors but i can't really figure out what exactly was wrong. The tactical decisions made sense to me and i tried to play after some priorities.
My overall intent was to hold the west side, and attack on the east and hold ground in center water.

Specifically i have two main questions:
a) The defense on the west side begun at about turn 8. It resulted in me losing two villages and lots of units. I have seen two mages coming and decided it would be crucial to kill off at least one of them at all cost since they are expensive losses for the enemy and key elements to break my defense in the hills and village.
That however lead to disrupted lines obviously which made my elements vulnerable.
=> What would be a better approach to defend in such a situation?

b) I figured that to turn around the game again my only chance would be to put heavy pressure on the east, so the opponent cannot reinforce properly on the west, relieving my defense. Because of my experience on the west i really tried to hold line formation to make it hard to counter attack.
After watching the replay several times i think this was executed not in an optimal manner but still worked somewhat. However i feared to attack more because i didn't want to face day with many woundet units and instead tried to retreat especially my valuable archers.
=> What would have been better here? Attack more agressively so i kill more off?


After that the match was already lost for me i think.
I would be honored if you would comment on other situations in the match too, but those two sitations outlined above would help me much as thats the thing i constantly struggle with.

Thank you very much for your analysis!
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helling3r
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by helling3r »

... did i something wrong with the replay?

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sergey
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by sergey »

Replay file is fine. Since there is no other comments I will provide mine, though I am not a competitive player, so use it on your own risk.

During the first night you haven't attacked effectively. Ideally during the first night as Northerners you should grab enemy village and park grunt there. Thus enemy will fight on their own territory in order to take their village back, instead of moving their forces on your territory. Regarding units composition. If you didn't know - first recommendation for Northerners is to spam grunts (with the major excepion of Undead where you need trolls and archers). Grunt spam is not a silver bullet, but if you are just learning it is a good start.

2 wolf riders was a waste of gold. You are anyway playing defensively. Scouts are used to threaten and grab villages, or finish wounded enemies. Instead of them at turns 6-7 you had to recruit either grunts, trolls or assassins and make sure they are parked on good terrain. Grunts ideally in villages. Considering your unit composition at that moment I would suggest grunts.

Poor naga. If its goal was to threaten villages, it would be better to keep it away from the enemy leader and use it at night at the same time when your main forces attack.

Moving leader to the lake was a mistake. You missed opportunity to reinforce.

2 mages means loyalist opponent prepared proper day time assault. With 2 mages he has high probability to take 1 village per turn. So I am not sure if it was good or not to attack the mage. Since he can anyway grab one village per turn with 2 mages, safer approach would be to move back and leave them 1 village, so mages can't reach you (at least both of them). If they will be closer to your keep, it would be easier for you to hold the ground with reinforcements, plus it is one turn closer to the night.

Attacking heavy infantry with grunt is a mistake. Use archers (fire arrows :)), assassins and trolls for that.

It is dusk and you haven't attacked yet on the east flank yet. Generally with chaotic units you should start your attack at dusk. Pay attention to your positioning though. In the other words you should prepare your attack before dusk, you should not attack mindlessly just because it is dusk. And you started to retreat too early. During night you should deal damage. Also you could poison fencer.

Retreat at night and attack at dawn? Clear mistake. Of course you tried to get some kill. But fencer on 70% is a tricky thing. And even if you killed him, your orcs will be slaughtered during the day. At least they were not surrounded. It is not only about day and night cycle. Northerners are weaker and cheaper than Loyalists. They win with their masses threatening as much villages as possible. At day they fall easily to loyalists.

Again your leader is walking / swimming for too long and not reinforcing.

You skipped night and not attacked at all. And despite he was very unlucky during morning, in the afternoon it was devastating.

I think your main mistakes were:
- unit composition (less archers, more grunts). During night you can attack everything with grunts (except heavy infantry, especially fearless :) ) Also I think you could use assassins more extensively to poison enemies, making sure assassin stands on 70% defense. It is especially good vs fencer, since assassin has at least 60% to hit on offense.
- night/day attack/retreat (especially attack) management
- leader may be useful in the fight, but his main task is to recruit

P.S. See https://wiki.wesnoth.org/How_to_play... and https://www.youtube.com/user/NekisBrutalWesnoth/videos
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.

helling3r
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by helling3r »

Thank you sergey, much appreciated. I can see the mistakes more clearly now.

Thanks also for posting, i really was unsure if the replay file was corrupt or just working on my machine.

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