[mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

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What should the faction name be for the Khalifate?

Poll runs till Today, 1:06 pm

Dunefolk
30
24%
Dune (Tribes/Kingdom)
11
9%
Khalifate
11
9%
Nomad (Tribes/Kingdom)
10
8%
Sandfolk
8
6%
Sons of the Sands
6
5%
Sons of Zamarkand
5
4%
Southerners
20
16%
Southern Kingdom
5
4%
Sultanates
11
9%
Xalid
8
6%
 
Total votes : 125

Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Cold Steel » December 7th, 2017, 1:58 am

Turuk wrote:A mystical component, various faint levels of djinn blood in their veins? A closer biological relationship with the sand that is part of their make-up?


If the jinn from mythology were generally said to be invisible, what if instead of sand they were fundamentally made of 'the wind itself'. A mystical wind nature fits their fast moving combat style. Also, the head of the proto-semitic-pantheon was a sky god.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Turuk » December 7th, 2017, 2:50 am

Xalzar wrote:My personal preference though is to have them be just a different culture of humans, and use new description and names to give them a new fantasy feel which incorporates hints from known cultures of the world and hints of a more fantastical settings.


Personally, my opinion mirrors your own. I would much rather them appear as a sub-culture of humanity than as an entirely different race, but was proposing ideas based on some of the feedback of other members. The hint of something fantastical in their backstory does provide some explanation to explain any sort of inclination towards magic or alchemy while leaving it open to be explored by a potential campaign.

Xalzar wrote:I'll step aside for now, I think I've said already enough and I don't want to derail the topic too much (the background really helps with unit names though, so I think it's necessary to think about it before long).


This point is incredibly valid though - ideally, a background has to be set in order to understand what drives the names of the unit, as in the past unit names have been changed after the background has been fleshed out (Drakes).

Cold Steel wrote:If the jinn from mythology were generally said to be invisible, what if instead of sand they were fundamentally made of 'the wind itself'. A mystical wind nature fits their fast moving combat style. Also, the head of the proto-semitic-pantheon was a sky god.


This is the sort of potential background explanation that has merit as it provides a framework but does not seek to explain every last detail at this time. It is always better to have more ideas to see what resonates with everyone than try to continually sell everyone on one idea.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby SigurdFireDragon » December 7th, 2017, 3:37 am

beetlenaut wrote:...On the other hand, Southerners sounds too generic and like we can't be bothered to be creative.


I can see that.

Though if a more finalized rename isn't ready at the time, Southerners for the faction name and Southern Humans for the race name could be used as an interim fix to implement for 1.14 RC1.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Sapient » December 7th, 2017, 7:49 am

Xalzar wrote: Otherwise, we should consider changing the name of the Wesnoth Kingdom to Holy Roman Empire (if we want realism) or Camelot (if we want adherence to our source of inspiration) at this point. [b]


If Wesnoth were really similar to the legend of King Arthur, which it isn't in my opinion, then I think some fantasized version of "Camelot", e.g. Camwenloth, would be perfectly reasonable. But I agree with you that Holy Roman Empire is bad name for a fantasy kingdom and we want fantasy not realism. As I said myself, many of those proposals were "maybe too realistic."

By the way, those weren't my proposals, except for the last one ("??? something that evokes Hamzanama"). I was just summarizing them for the convenience of everyone else so they wouldn't have to dig them up. Apparently, that effort wasn't appreciated?

Anyway, let's try to avoid heavy amounts snark in discussing the cons of each proposal going forward. I guess I started it with my winky face. So here is a more straightforward and hopefully snark-free explanation why I don't like "Southerners" or "Sand Kingdom": the main reason is, they are far too generic sounding. While we do have a Northerners faction in MP, it never struck me as a great name, and it doesn't seem to be used much in campaigns (once in Liberty, once in HttT). As for sand people, they are a well known race in Star Wars. Dune is a less popular fantasy setting, so it would be better IMO.

EDIT; I also went back to my post and moved Rashidun and Osmanlis into the "maybe too realistic" section
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby The_Gnat » December 7th, 2017, 8:25 am

I think the four points that sigurdfiredragon posted earlier are very good. I support everyone's opinions but honestly their will be no headway unless a poll is opened, and at this point I believe we have enough ideas that we can create a poll for the faction name. If the creator of this thread or a moderator could open a poll I think that faction name should be voted on first.

Very many options have been proposed so I don't remember them all but if whoever is creating the poll could read back that would be great. (Also people should be able to vote on multiple options)

Also I strongly support sapient's suggestions for comments. In an area such as this where everyone disagrees we should attempt to make as constructive comments as possible when regarding others ideas.

(also I agree with sapient's statement about the names sand people and southerners)
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Sapient » December 7th, 2017, 9:41 am

In such a poll, it would be nice to see the suggested unit prefix along with the faction name, in cases where it is not just "<Faction-name>". For example, with Southern Kingdoms it would be "Southern" Soldier not S.K. Soldier.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby GunChleoc » December 7th, 2017, 9:45 am

How about "Children of the Wind" or "Children of the Sun" or some such?
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Aldarisvet » December 7th, 2017, 10:10 am

Turuk wrote:This point is incredibly valid though - ideally, a background has to be set in order to understand what drives the names of the unit, as in the past unit names have been changed after the background has been fleshed out (Drakes).

As Drakes where mentioned I want to remind some things about them that many I suspect even dont now.
When I was reworking a translation of Drakes units names to Russian I get into background of Drakes, into old forum discussions, I surprusingly found that their background where largely taken from protoss race from Starcaft. I was amazed when I got it. Really their caste system, their "judge" and "police" branches of non-flying drakes, their hand blades like protoss zealots have - it all was taken from starcraft. But still drakes are not protoss of course.

I am writing this to show that 'Dune people' can have a very intersting, mystic background. One that would make players to associate with them, to immerse in their world. For example many want to associate themself with elves. And for now I really doubt that many would like 'to be' khalifates also because of these incomprehensible arabian names. Look how the author of 'Dune' make desert Freemen very popular. All his books are filled with eastern/arabic culture, but there is no problem in it, contrary to how people take khalifate faction in Wesnoth. I mean, if it was an idea to bring european and eastern people close together with this this faction (I saw in the forum it really was an idea) then the form in which it was realised achieved the opposite, many threads in the past with suggestion to rename the faction and names of units etc. were closed after hot discussions.
Last edited by Aldarisvet on December 7th, 2017, 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Turuk » December 7th, 2017, 12:10 pm

Aldarisvet wrote:And for now I really doubt that many would like 'to be' khalifates also because of these incomprehensible arabian names. Look how the author of 'Dune' make desert Freemen very popular. All his books are filled with eastern/arabic culture, but there is no problem in it, contrary to how people take khalifate faction in Wesnoth. I mean, if it was an idea to bring european and eastern people close together with this this faction (I saw in the forum it really was an idea) then the form in which it was realised achieved the opposite, many threads in the past with suggestion to rename the faction and names of units etc. were closed after hot discussions.


Aside from your first point, as we have a global community, I agree. It was realistic analysis that opened the door previously to the debate that escalated previous discussions. As Sapient wisely pointed out, the focus should be on figuring out the best name for a fantasy race within the game and not the best real-world comparison that they can be tied to in the process.

If someone has a working list of suggestions, I can make a poll.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Can-ned_Food » December 7th, 2017, 2:17 pm

One point I raised was that a fantasy race does not need have a, as was said, mystical background or even feel to it. Though my idea — having a strict monotheist which views the other factions as silly pagans or atheists — seems to me like an interesting distinction that could produce a wealth of conflict and story opportunities, most others here are not on–board with that.

Here's my proposal: I continue my TXE add–on as a separate era, while you guys can develop another faction or era which will be more swiftly included in the mainline. Perhaps yours lies on the outskirts of the far south, between Wesnoth and the Xalıdı empire's lands, and is more arid than the heart of the Xalıdı empire.
The nature of that relationship between the two factions is a different topic. What I ask here is that you guys consider the possibility that the proposed People of the Dunes are a more nomadic and desert–dwelling faction who possibly worship the Djinn or like beings — and possibly have some Djinn ancestry. Hybrids? Are the Irdya Djinn–things based on Fire or Wind? Fire + Earth = Glass; you could come up with all manner of other combinations.
That's not my idea, but my summary of what looks like some discussions here are veering towards.

Off topic: thank you for the comments on the name ‘Xalıdı’, and thank you for not simply scoffing and dismissing the unusual spelling. All the same, I'd rather keep that spelling — maybe Xalidı. One more reason for me to push that faction farther away from Wesnoth proper.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Turuk » December 7th, 2017, 2:38 pm

Can-ned_Food wrote:Here's my proposal: I continue my TXE add–on as a separate era, while you guys can develop another faction or era which will be more swiftly included in the mainline.


To you first point, of course, we can focus solely on the Khalifate as they exist now and now in reference to what you may be doing in your add-on. To the second point, yes, that is the driving issue as they exist half in and out of mainline now.

Sapient contacted me on Discord and had an excellent proposal for how to organize the poll. A first round with all names, a second round with the top 4, and then a third round between the final two. It may seem excessive but gives people a chance to allocate their votes again if their choice was not selected.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Kingreaper » December 7th, 2017, 7:07 pm

Cold Steel wrote:
If the jinn from mythology were generally said to be invisible, what if instead of sand they were fundamentally made of 'the wind itself'. A mystical wind nature fits their fast moving combat style. Also, the head of the proto-semitic-pantheon was a sky god.

Djinn are said to be made of "smokeless flame" and "the fierce hot winds" so wind certainly fits better than sand.

I'm not sure that Djnn blood is desirable for the Khalifate, but Djinn would certainly be desirable for a Khalifate campaign.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby The_Gnat » December 8th, 2017, 12:26 am

@Turuk - Sapient's idea sounds good!

@Can-nedFood - you of course can do whatever you want but personally I would recommend that if you are going to make your own era that you make it unique enough that it can have it a own independence (rather than merely making a Khalifate era with name changes). But as I said at the start you should feel free to do whatever you want regardless.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby BTIsaac » December 8th, 2017, 8:03 am

Khalifate as a faction name doesn't need to be changed. I mean Khalifate is a form of government, just like a kingdom or an empire, so I see no point substituting one word for another.

As for the race name, how about "-folk" as a suffix. Wouldn't "Dunefolk" or "Windfolk" have a better ring to it than an "X of Y" possessive structure?

Alternatively, I often give fantasy names by taking two words that describe a character/people, look up their equivalent in a language that I believe to be most appropriate, and make some kind of contraction of the two with appropriate phonetic changes. So I'm guessing the same could be done with any of the recommended terms, and either Arabic or Persian as the language.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Pentarctagon » December 8th, 2017, 9:29 am

BTIsaac wrote:Khalifate as a faction name doesn't need to be changed. I mean Khalifate is a form of government, just like a kingdom or an empire, so I see no point substituting one word for another.


It's not just substituting one form of government for another though - Khalifate has a strong tie to a real world religion, whereas the others do not.
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