Hunters of the East

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Inky
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by Inky »

Played a few more scenarios (campaign version 1.1.9b for scenarios 3-6, 1.1.9d for scenarios 7 and 9, hard difficulty):
Comments on scenarios 3-9
Scenario 3 (The great forest):

In general I liked this map, it was interesting and fun despite being huge. One thing I found a bit tedious though was having to drag the four caravans all the way through the forest. I didn't feel that having the caravans there added to the challenge either, since in practice the enemies would rather attack my weak level 0s than go for the caravans, and the enemies only came a few at a time so the caravans were never in any danger of being destroyed. Just an idea: maybe there could be only one caravan unit which represents all four caravans (or maybe Den and his pals took so much of your stuff you're only left with one).

Defending the island at the end was extremely easy - a couple augurs showed up per turn and that's it. (By the way, since you're only facing saurians in the last 10 turns, wouldn't it make sense if defeating the saurian leader at any point in the scenario was a victory condition?) I also felt like the scenario ended kind of apruptly - there's no victory dialogue on the tenth turn, and it came as a surprise too since I had lost track of how many turns were left.

Scenario 4 (Among the wolves):

I had a really hard time with this one, with only 5 recalls and almost no healing. I managed to beat it on the first try, though most of my units came very close to dying. I suppose I should have recalled all my best veterans instead of messing with weak level 1s like Grey Paw. Still, I found this scenario to be harder than the rest.

Minor dialogue issue: If you free a wolf and move next to it after it's already been freed, you'll still trigger the orc dialogue about freeing it.

Scenario 5 (Saving Nirydia):

I managed to save all the loyal elves by sending them straight southeast, with some sacrificial ones staying behind to slow down the orcs. Then I retreated all the way to the southern forest next to the starting keep and defended until most of the orcs were gone.

Objective ("Kill all enemies"): At first I thought I only had to kill the enemy leaders. In retrospect it was pretty clear, but maybe "Kill all enemy units" would be even clearer.

It took me some reloading to figure out the puzzle at the end. The location and time of day were clear, but it never occured to me to move two units onto the trees at the same time, and it only happened by accident. (When I got the "nothing happened" message, I thought that maybe a specific unit was required, like Nirydia herself)

Scenario 6 (Passage in the Darkness):

Finding the master at the end was really confusing - you have to move both Swethorvast and Nirydia to the correct location, but you're given no indication of where the correct location is (I moved Swethorvast to the conspicuous village in the center and nothing happened, so I figured he wasn't there). I'd suggest either making it so that only one of Nirydia/Swethorvast is needed to find the Master, or making the final area smaller (remove those passages leading to nowhere, so people don't waste turns exploring them).

Scenario 7 (Besieged):

I found this one relatively easy, but only because I had leveled a whole bunch of elvish sorceresses/druids in the previous 2 scenarios. I imagine this one would be close to impossible without lots of leveled shamans or leveled footpad/thugs.

Carryover from S7 to S9: I had 55 carryover gold from scenario 7, which ended up as 155 gold for scenario 9 (min. gold in scenario 9 is 130, not 100) - is this the way it's supposed to work?

Scenario 9 (The ambush):

I think (as noted in the above posts) this scenario is much too reliant on leveled footpads - they're the only unit which can safely damage the shocktroopers and halberdier. Some players might not have them anymore (I happened to have a lot, but on the other hand I lost all but one of my thug units). I think one way to balance it to make other unit types usable would be to change some of the shocktrooper type guards to bowmen / swordsmen units, and move Swethorvast's keep closer to the road.

Also, I noticed the only difference between easy/normal/hard is a slightly different gold amount - I would suggest less / lower level guards depending on difficulty because extra gold isn't much help in this scenario (need quality, not quantity) so easy/normal would definitely be too hard.

p.s. one cheap tactic you can do in this scenario is use cannon fodder units to lure away some of the caravan guards so you don't have to fight them all at once. The two thieves you start with can be sacrificed to lure some units east (that's about all they're good for actually...)
EDIT:
On second thought extra gold is a huge help in The Ambush, having 1-2 more wolves can mean capturing the caravans a turn earlier. I guess what I meant is that having the right units against the guards is more helpful than having more gold.

My recall list: mostly a ton of leveled footpads and elvish sorceresses. I kept trying to level thugs but they kept dying on me, I didn't manage to level a single one to level 3 yet. I like the footpads more anyway since this campaign is full of forest/mountains and a 5 movement thug isn't going anywhere.

Added the replays (to see my exact recall list you can save the game from the replay, then load the saved game, then hit recall)
Attachments
HotE-Besieged_replay.gz
Scenario 7
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HotE-The_High_Plains_replay.gz
Scenario 5
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HotE-Among_the_wolves_replay.gz
Scenario 4
(49.5 KiB) Downloaded 226 times
HotE-The_great_forest_replay.gz
Scenario 3
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HotE-The_Ambush_replay.gz
the art of cannon fodder (Scenario 9)
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Last edited by Inky on February 29th, 2016, 9:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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skeptical_troll
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by skeptical_troll »

Hi Inky, thanks for the comments. Quick answers:

Scenario 3: I recently decreased the gold saurians get when you arrive there. Probably I've been too merciful and will change it. I'm not sure if I'd like to leave only one caravan, although 2 or 3 could be enough (even from the previous scenario). I already uses the payment excuse to make them faster, so I'll think of something different. I am glad to hear that this scenario is not boring as the big map was concerning me a bit.

Scenario 4: Ok, there is definitely too little gold on hard, will fix it. In my spirit, it is good to force the players to recall veterans (I don't like campaigns where you can indefinitely enlarge your recall list with strong units) , but probably here it is a bit extreme.

Scenario 5: good job with the loyals! I will clarify the objectives better. Concerning the trees, I will change the dialogue of units climbing them, like saying "There is a lever, I'll try to pull it" or something that justifies the fact that you need two units at the same time. I understand these kind of Karoshi-style puzzle are a bit out of the place in Wesnoth, but I thought they could help immersion a bit.

Scenario 6: based on what both you and Taptap said, I think I'll change the objectives to 'find the master with Nirydia or Swethorvast' and trigger victory when you move on of the two units there. This will be more in the wesnoth style and won't require painfully moving nirydia beyond the rune.

Scenario 7: yes, I expect the player to have leveled shamans from the previous scenario. I think it is also fair to think that the player will try levelling thugs and footpads, as the story tells quite clearly that the main enemies are undeads.

About the carryover: I can only say that I am really crap at managing gold among story-only scenario. I've been creating problems continuously since I switched to the 40% system. Basically I forgot that there are two story-only scenarios between 7 and 9! :oops: :oops: Now however I fixed it. You should have had 130+55=185 of gold.


Scenario 9: In my idea thieves are mainly a distraction for the guards (somehow similar to your tactics), and I did not want to provide the player with easy footpads as I said before. I like your suggestion of changing the escort units based on the difficulty level though, I think I will do it. I am not sure if I agree that starting gold does not help you, it certainly makes the retreat easier and also allows to spam more units to keep the few guards busy. There is always an high risk of loosing precious units though.
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by taptap »

@inky: So jealous about your shadow lord. Such a beauty. I missed him. Interested in your recall list, seems to be very different from mine. (EDIT: Yes, very different. My recall list is much more melee, but only 2 outlaws.)

Scenario 3: The caravans saw plenty of action in my playthrough protecting key units when one of my columns got all poisoned in some village free area. (Savegame is in this thread.) Even though they can't fight, they were far from useless.
Scenario 7: It is save to assume everyone levels a few shamans, thugs, footpads before, scenario 6 is impossible to finish without getting several level 2 shamans imo.
Scenario 9: Capturing the caravans a turn earlier is huge. You require 2 less turns and are less exposed to pushing opponents (and all that damn poison) - it is just not possible without distraction. Contrary to inky I believe gold helps a lot, 150, 170, 190 play very differently (having spare units to capture the caravan is big) even though you need enough muscle to wrest the caravans from their guards. Still curious how people played this with low gold before the time of day changes (thanks for them, now it is a proper night raid).

Ruffians / thugs / footpads: I like ruffians. They are really cheap and intelligent ones level up from a single L2 kill. However, thugs and footpads still die pretty fast at L1. As recruited units they are very cheap as well, but at 20 gold a piece when recalled, they are really expensive units, I am not sure they are worth it compared to 3 ruffians or 4 mud crawlers? Levelling them to L1 is easy enough, but is recalling them as L1 ever worth it unless they have already high xp?
Last edited by taptap on March 1st, 2016, 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by skeptical_troll »

taptap wrote:Ruffians / thugs / footpads: I like ruffians. They are really cheap and intelligent ones level up from a single L2 kill. However, thugs and footpads still die pretty fast at L1. As recruited units they are very cheap as well, but at 20 gold a piece when recalled, they are really expensive units, I am not sure they are worth it compared to 3 ruffians or 4 mud crawlers? Levelling them to L1 is easy enough, but is recalling them as L1 ever worth it unless they have already high xp?
I agree with you, I think even in my playthroughs I hardly recall thugs and footpads as L1. However, in scenario 3 it is likely that you level up at least 4-5 of them. You may get 2 high level units from ruffians in scenario 6 (although this may not be the case the first time you play it) and in scenario 7, depending a bit on luck, some footpads and thugs are recalled for free (one possibility is recalling more here). They will be in danger, but it is also a chance to level them up. It is also not uncommon that a ruffian get levelled twice in a single scenario, making worth the recall. However, I want to keep the number of these units under control, otherwise this campaign would be too similar to Liberty or NR. Having 3-4 outlaws/fugitives for scenario 9 should be sufficient, I reckon. Withing some limit of reasonable freedom, I'd like the players to use poachers (archers in general), wolves and mud crawlers when convenient (I agree that fire guardians are not so useful for their price though, except for their speed in scenario 7, where they can quickly cover critical points). That's why the recruit list looks kind of funny. If you go further on, you will get additional motivation to rely on archers.
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Inky
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by Inky »

(note: I added my replays to my earlier post)

Unit variety: I think you may also want to limit the number of elvish shaman recruits then - I don't know how much you get to use the elves in the later scenarios, but elvish sylphs are the most powerful units in the game (not to mention amazing against undead) so this may turn into a shyde / sylph fleet campaign. (I think I had around 6 elvish sorceresses (+ Nirydia as an enchantress) and 4 druids after Besieged.)

EDIT:
Scenario 11 (Finding Tocletus)
Spoiler:
Scenario 14 (Legend of Swethorvast)

I'm pretty sure this scenario isn't possible - the undead reach the northwest peasant leader around turn 10, which is about how many turns it would take if you sent your fastest units straight there. Even if you made it there with some units they wouldn't survive against the undead horde alone (note that turn 10 is Dusk).

Sometimes the peasant leader will move off the recruiting space - it might be better if they just stayed put, otherwise it's hard to cover them.

And with the shadow / wraith recruits you'd have to surround all 6 hexes around a peasant leader to protect from a lucky leaderkill. And you could potentially have the situation that one of the hexes is taken by an allied level 0, so you can't put your own unit there. I think the easiest solution is have the leaders be level 1 or 2 so they won't die to a single attack.

Bugs:
-The two caravans from ambush are on my recall list.
-In scenario 13 when you pick the armors you can have one unit pick up two armors for 100% resistance :D (though I didn't do this)

It would also be nice to have an overlay for the armored units so you can find them in the recall list easily (especially if you have multiple units of the same type).
Typos (Scenarios 4-11):
S4 (Among the wolves)

Line #:
14: stillnes -> stillness
34: looking for a revenge -> looking for revenge
34: successfull -> successful
35: a couple of day of march -> a couple days' march
34 and 39: Pritryac -> Prytriac

S5 (Saving Nirydia)

13: suprised -> surprised
17: one of the greatest warrior -> warriors
18: south than the Great River -> south of the Great River
18: everybody address him -> everybody addressed him
24: was resoluted -> was resolute
27: succesfully -> successfully
31: drammatic -> dramatic
219: cutted off -> cut off
337: we musts -> we must
389: corteous -> courteous
424, 479: mistery -> mystery
498: short before -> shortly before
514: unvaluable -> invaluable
518: So why doing this to him? -> So why do this to him?
531: tought -> taught
546, 641: mistery -> mystery
555: missing . at end
762: didn't knew -> didn't know
786: (Nirydia to Harilur) I blindly trust your advice. -> "Blindly" has a pretty negative connotation, usually used to imply that the trust is foolish. (Maybe: "I completely trust your advice" or just "I trust your advice")
806: responsability -> responsibility

S6 (The secret valley)

17: with his immense surprise -> to his immense surprise
248: who after glory is thirst -> who after glory does thirst
632: did she sent you -> did she send you

S7 (Besieged)

36: suspect -> suspicion
36: an higher goal -> a higher goal
40: uneffective -> ineffective
42: his magic power -> her magic power
47: brave and unite -> brave and united
62: unvaluably -> invaluably
275: figthing -> fighting, Thanks the spirits -> Thank the spirits
289: Without his guide -> Without his guidance
293: desperation and mourn -> desperation and mourning, we are unite -> we are united
373: stressfull -> stressful
597: trecherous -> treacherous

S7b (The weight of the past)

12: wounded to death -> gravely wounded / mortally wounded
43: responsabilities -> responsibilities
49: the -> The, exaled -> exhaled
64: incautios -> incautious (happens twice)
67: awaken -> awakened, this -> these
180: But why nobody told me before? -> But why did nobody tell me before? / But why has nobody told me before?
206: costed -> cost
210: distruction -> destruction
215: resoluted -> resolute, they swore that they would have never abandoned each other -> they swore that they would never abandon each other
224: imprisonement -> imprisonment
237: That is terrible, Harilur I did not know.. -> That is terrible, Harilur. I did not know..
258: tought -> taught
262: Why nobody ever told me? -> Why did nobody ever tell me?
267: figthing -> fighting

S8 (In the Hall of the Mountain King)

147: jelous -> jealous
269: figthing -> fighting
309: bracalet -> bracelet
317: unappropriate -> inappropriate
329: metaphore -> metaphor
416: We do not see him since thirty years! -> We have not seen him in thirty years!
494: reccomend -> recommend
511: unconvenient -> inconvenient
554: missing . at end
662: an high price -> a high price
667: unvulnerable -> invulnerable
711: fellon -> felon
761: figthing -> fighting

S9 (The Ambush)

13: the assault to the Duke's gold -> the assault on the Duke's gold
178: Jen Lohy -> Den Lohy

S10 (Return to the Dwarves)

15: the second day of march -> the second day of the march / the second day of marching

S11 (Finding Tocletus)

117: north than here -> north of here
163, 167: an hermit -> a hermit
175: but -> But
191: misterious -> mysterious
248: Haunt them! -> Hunt them!
264: I am not in the condition of reding anybody now (not sure what this word was meant to be)
272: Figthing -> Fighting
292: encapment -> encampment
407: figthing -> fighting
415: mistery -> mystery
435: though -> thought
597: profanate -> profane
669: an hermit -> a hermit
673: advise -> advice
802: you offer -> your offer
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skeptical_troll
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by skeptical_troll »

Inky wrote:Scenario 14 (Legend of Swethorvast)

I'm pretty sure this scenario isn't possible
Damn, I am having really an hard time balancing this one (which is the scenario I am the least happy of at the moment)! In my playthroughs it swapped continuously between obvious and impossible every time I changed it. :doh: Making the peasant leader more resistant, as you suggest, could be a good way of giving you more time and make their survival less luck-dependent. I am not sure what could be a suitable L1 or L2, maybe I'll just increase their HP.
Do you think I should not let them share the keep? I thought it was nice to leave the player the possibility of recruiting there (e.g. with the wolf).
Inky wrote:-The two caravans from ambush are on my recall list
Oh well, this is fine, it was a tough battle to capture them, now you deserve two nice empty caravans in your recalls :)
Inky wrote: -In scenario 13 when you pick the armors you can have one unit pick up two armors for 100% resistance (though I didn't do this)

:doh: didn't even think about it! Will fix it. I was thinking of how to mark the armored units with an image or something, but I'm not sure of how to do it. I remember in some mainline campaign there are some small overlays to keep track of mermans with tridents etc, I may just copy what is done there.


I have a language question, if you don't mind:
Spoiler:
RainerT
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by RainerT »

Hi,

I really enjoyed the campaign so far, however I run into a bug in scenario 7. At the beginning of turn 4 Den should apear, but it doesn't happen. The dialog starts and Swethorvasts and Nirydias dialogs are shown, but not Dens. I played 1.1.8. Since I noticed 1.1.9b is current I upgraded without success even after restarting Wesnoth and the scenario. I play the 1.12.5 packages on Debian Linux.
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by skeptical_troll »

Hi RainerT
RainerT wrote: At the beginning of turn 4 Den should apear, but it doesn't happen.
Now, that is weird, the only thing I can think of is that it wasn't properly stored at the end of scenario 3 (the forest). Did something strange happened at the end of scenario 3 (in particular, did Den and his pals get back to their hut, as they are supposed to)?
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by taptap »

"reding" - I instantly thought of "red mages", i.e. turning your rookie mage to a red mage. :hmm:
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by RainerT »

skeptical_troll wrote:Now, that is weird, the only thing I can think of is that it wasn't properly stored at the end of scenario 3 (the forest). Did something strange happened at the end of scenario 3 (in particular, did Den and his pals get back to their hut, as they are supposed to)?
No. He left with his mates when I reached the island. I add an save at the end of turn 3. Perhaps it helps to analyze the bug.
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by taptap »

Scenario 11: Archery, faerie fire and some clubs did the job. Not sure what to make out of Kylp (silver?). I don't actually need healers or spell casters (if the elves stay with me til the end). Initially, when facing majority of both opponents it was somewhat tricky, they later engaged each other more. Started with 232 gold, go into next one with 201 gold. (Finished with another master bowman and a pikeman, but still low on footpad-types.) The way the campaign works, I have now 3 L3 Master Bowman, but 0 of the corresponding L1 and L2, so I probably won't recall them much before the end.

Next scenario: If I recall the mud ruler, I can recruit mud, but I get a weird message for recalls (currently no recalls at the position). It is just out of curiosity, I intend to recruit a few, and not bother again with my L1 mud, but the message was just weird.
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tribes55
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by tribes55 »

Hello!

First of all, I'd like to say that I found the basis of your campaign interesting, however, here is my take on the introduction scenario:

The scenario is far too large for an introduction into a story line. For me, large maps are fine, but they're generally only enjoyable when you're invested into the campaign and it's story. That is not what happens here, instead, it is the first scenario, and I have no investment into the campaign.

I'm not sure if people would disagree or agree with me, but here are a few suggestions that I have:

-An event at some point within the first scenario that speeds the scenario up. (Ex. Main character gets a horse)
-The scenario is done in stages. Maybe the map could start out small, and gradually expand. I'm not sure how to do this, though.
-There is more dialogue-- why is this Lich so dedicated to kill a few peasants? This might be elaborated upon later on, but I would suggest introducing, or foreshadowing it earlier on, if that is the case.
-The character is given a speed attribute

Granted, a lot of these would impact the current state of balance in the scenario. That's just what I think would make the campaign and scenario more captivating.
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by skeptical_troll »

@RainerT: looking at your save, the variable where Den is supposed to be stored is not there. I am afraid that something wrong happened at the end of scenario 3, or something unexpected cleared the variable. Do you have a save or a replay from scenario 3 (you can send it to me in a PM if you like)? It is normal that he left after you reach the island (he's going back where he first appeared).

@Taptap: I tried recalling the mud ruler and recruiting/recalling some mud in that scenario, and I did not see that message. Were you prevented to recalls your mud veterans? I don't know what is causing that problem :hmm:

@tribes55: thanks for the feedback, I guess you are making a good point. I think I will follow the second of your suggestions, which will not alter too much the gameplay and don't require rebalancing. There is actually no need to show anything at the beginning but the southern part of the map. I may also add some dialogue to help setting the mood, maybe when the undeads reach the village for the first time.
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by Inky »

reding: oops, my mistake, I assumed it was a typo because I've never seen the word before. It's probably fine as is then because it's very easy to guess the meaning from context. As for something pretentious using more familiar words, hmmm, maybe something like "I have insufficient time for discourse at the moment" :hmm:

Peasant leaders sharing keep in scenario 14: The problem is you need to shield the allied leaders with your own units and it's hard if you don't know where the leader will move on their turn. A possible solution - move the peasants to last in the turn order, that way if the leader moves you have the chance to shield them with your units before the undead take their turn.

Drake flare leader: he's missing the leadership ability at level 2 (but gets it when he levels up).
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Re: Hunters of the East

Post by skeptical_troll »

Inky wrote: "I have insufficient time for discourse at the moment"
I like it, I think I'm gonna use this one, I don't wanna be pretentious myself! ;)
Inky wrote:move the peasants to last in the turn order

Good idea, I just uploaded a new version where, together with other improvements discussed above, the peasant leaders have high HP and come after the undeads in turn. I also gave them the ultimate weapon, but that's highly experimental so I am not sure if I will keep it! I still need to test the scenario now, I think it will still require a big rush to save the peasants.
Inky wrote:Drake flare leader: he's missing the leadership ability at level 2
fixed, thanks!
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