Legend of the Invincibles

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
19
19%
Reaper
9
9%
Scythemaster
5
5%
Shadowalker
6
6%
Shadow Prince
11
11%
Siege Troll
4
4%
Sky Goblin
2
2%
Snow Hunter
12
12%
Soul Shooter
3
3%
Swordmaster
13
13%
Troll Boulderlobber
1
1%
Warlock
7
7%
Werewolf Rider
3
3%
Zombie Rider
3
3%
 
Total votes: 98

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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Aevyn wrote:Bug: While testing, I found that physical resistance bonuses from armor will give half their intended value to impact resistance.
Not a bug. It is even explained in the in-game campaign help FAQ.
Aevyn wrote:Nightprowler: Reduce the Fury attack which uses Lesser Berserk 3 to Lesser Berserk 2. Reduce max bow hits from amla from 7 to 6 (This should also apply to Fury).
I think we should research other berserk attacks first. Besides heros, I see 4 units that can gain an AMLA berserk attack - Human Destroyer, Elvish Nightprowler, Orcish Nightblade and Werewolf Rider.
Orcish Nightblade berserk is a ranged bonus attack with no penalty, from 6-4 marksman starting point (6-5 after 3 AMLAs). I found Nightblade to be pretty poor.
Werewolf gets a melee bonus attack with -40% attacks, from 7-4 start (6-6 after 3 AMLAs) than can AMLA to +30/-10. Werewolf bite attack is stronger than the claw.
Destroyer gets a new attack (not bonus attack, so not affected by improving the main attack) that is 7-5 and can get AMLA to 7-10.
Nightprowler gets a bonus attack starting from 9-5 (10-7 after 3 AMLAs, and can add marksman). Berserk attack starts at -10 damage and -40 attacks and can AMLA to -10/-10. So this is the biggest starting point, and has the biggest upgrades on the base attack. Destroyer can hit harder, but that is melee and cannot get marksman.

Conclusion: I think the better choice is breaking the link between the Nightprowler bonus attack and his base attack. Make it about 7-4, Berserk 3. Put in three +1 damage and a +1 attack, to max at 10-5.
Additional comment: It might not hurt to reduce the Destroyer's Berserk AMLA count from 5 to 4.
Aevyn wrote:Juggernaut: Expand max amla sword hits from 6 to 7. Add AMLA for +8 regeneration
Juggernaut should be the hardest hitting melee unit, passing Swordmaster and Destroyer? I don't agree.
If you want to give him regen, do it as three AMLAs - +4, +6, +8.
Aevyn wrote:Elvish Overlord: Enable staff usage. Remove / Replace the two forest hiding amlas with one for Damage Aura(10) and one for +8 healing. Increase arcane resistance to 20%.
Doesn't this make him better than the warlord?
If you want more arcane resist, I think it should be via AMLAs (+10 arcane resist, max 4 times), but I don't think he should start with it. He is a fighter than learns magic, not a true magic user.
Could be really different and give him AMLAs for general elemental resist: +10 arcane, +5 fire, +5 cold. Max 4 times.
Aevyn wrote:Elvish Seer: Change arcane resistance to 40%. Add Arcane resistance penetration amlas.(Consider allowing movement throughout unwalkable hexes as Lethalia does --- they have wings)
Here I agree.


I do think dropping the Faerie to max +32 heal is appropriate.
Spirit_of_Currents
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Spirit_of_Currents »

I don't agree nor disagree with Aevyn nor dabber. I'm so bad a player that I shouldn't take part in unit balancing.
I think it should be easier to get in-game information about who can use what items. If I recall correctly, the lesser berserk attacks are described as "fury". What weapon is it? If those units having a magical attack can use staves, it should in my opinion be in effect also if they get it from an unusual source, for example Book of Fireballs (and advancing) (if it isn't so already).
There are very much electrical currents in my brain.
If I was a mainline unit, I would be a strong, resilient Inferno Drake.
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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Minor bug in 9_09 Infernal Narrows. It says:

Code: Select all

{SPAWN_ONLY_ONCE boss1 sc9_boss1}
{SPAWN_ONLY_ONCE boss1 sc9_boss2}
Which means boss1 prevents both bosses from spawning again.



In 9_10 Fortress of Blackened Dreams, sides 3 and 4 occupy fortress that block the entrance. But side 3 doesn't have enough money to fill the fortresses, so that terrain is giving good defense to the player while we kill the demon "defenders". I also think Imps should not be showing up anywhere, at least on hard, and making side 4 recruit imps is waste ... they aren't even an impediment. If you switch side 4 to Demons (level 5), he doesn't have enough money to fill his keep like side 3.
Looking further, the level based gold quantities on all the leaders in this scenario do not really change their initial recruiting. The difference between easy and hard is 100 gold, and most of these guys recruit units costing 100 gold or more.
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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Spirit_of_Currents wrote:I think it should be easier to get in-game information about who can use what items.
Basically they can only use weapons they are already using, for example if they have a sword and a bow, they can use such items, but no axes etc. Ghosts can't use (main-)armor, the rest is free for all; what do you find difficult?
If I recall correctly, the lesser berserk attacks are described as "fury". What weapon is it?
Lesser berserk is named just that and it's the same weapon they already use but a separate attack.
Spoiler:
For 'fury' I wanted to refer to the help, but I guess Dugi has to add that.
If those units having a magical attack can use staves, it should in my opinion be in effect also if they get it from an unusual source, for example Book of Fireballs (and advancing)
Maybe not, I don't know why my Destroyer should (be able to) use a staff.
I have a cunning plan.
marktempe
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Joined: October 28th, 2014, 10:10 am

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by marktempe »

Sorry to pause a second the discussion about balancing:

I searched in the last pages a bit but couldn't find it: am I wrong or if a unit levels up at higher levels while defending there isn't an AMLA screen at the beginning of the next turn anymore?
I am starting to lose too many AMLA for my heroes... :/

edit: typo

Re-edit: I found the manual fix given by dugi, but it is already implemented: should I restart the scenario to get it..?
I am in the middle of Arctic Wastelands... do I really need to restart it? :cry:
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@Spirit_of_Currents
Usually, attacks added by AMLA that have some special properties have their damage based on the strongest attack of the given range the unit has. So if the unit has more weapons, it picks that one that deals more damage (damage*attack count is the defining value).

@dabber
Thanks, fixed that error and the not-enough-gold problem
Frequently the enemies don't have significantly more gold in chapter 9 on harder difficulties, but most enemies that appear there have damage and hitopoints depending on difficulty. Furthermore, their traits are stronger on normal and even stronger on hard.

@marktempe
That AMLA vanishing error was actually an extremely old bug that sometimes appeared and started annoying. The latest update fixes it. If you noticed it in a very long scenario, you can let it be and then in the following scenario use the alter advancement menu option, that should give all the lost AMLAs back to you. If it doesn't help, you can always edit the save file and do the changes yourself (variable advanced should not be cleared at the end of the force respec event).
Aevyn
Posts: 107
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Aevyn »

I believe it's not a bug, but Dugi's decision; because ~'historically impact was used to break through armour'.
Not a bug. It is even explained in the in-game campaign help FAQ.
Learn something everyday. The amount of times I've played this and I never caught that. Nice.
.....
Just a quick comment. One thing I'd like to avoid is nerfing each unit to a low base and stripping what makes it special. Furthermore, if a unit seems dull or uninteresting, we should try and fix that.

For example, no doubt a top tier unit is Celestial Messenger. When we get to humans, I'd rather not nerf it down to a lowly form. Instead, why not slightly raise the level of everything in addition to slightly lowering top tier units' ability.... reaching a midline.
dabber wrote:Conclusion: I think the better choice is breaking the link between the Nightprowler bonus attack and his base attack. Make it about 7-4, Berserk 3. Put in three +1 damage and a +1 attack, to max at 10-5.
Additional comment: It might not hurt to reduce the Destroyer's Berserk AMLA count from 5 to 4.
I'm okay with taking this route instead; agree with the above. I'll suggest for max "10-6" (as opposed to 10-5) on fury originating at the same base you suggested 7-4.

Berserker we'll get to later, but yea that'll probably have to happen
Juggernaut should be the hardest hitting melee unit, passing Swordmaster and Destroyer? I don't agree.
If you want to give him regen, do it as three AMLAs - +4, +6, +8.
Based on previous comments, Juggernaut is one of those "dull" units so the question is how to make it interesting. Furthermore, a characteristic of elves is <= 0% on most if not all resistances

[Google Definition] Juggernaut: a huge, powerful, and overwhelming force or institution.

Since it's the elf warrior unit, why not add some sort of "survival" amla that provides self care. +4, +6, +8 suggested above is just fine. I'll yield on the additional amla melee hit for juggernaut.
dabber wrote:Doesn't this make him better than the warlord?
If you want more arcane resist, I think it should be via AMLAs (+10 arcane resist, max 4 times), but I don't think he should start with it. He is a fighter than learns magic, not a true magic user.
Could be really different and give him AMLAs for general elemental resist: +10 arcane, +5 fire, +5 cold. Max 4 times.
The suggestion for Overlord arcane resist was based on the description. The unit is apparently male half-fairy / touching metal hurts for him. Faerie units such as Seer / Incarnation have higher arcane resist as a result. Overlord shouldn't have -10 by that logic.

Overlord is also just that. An elf "overlord". He has leadership, but warlord's leadership level is higher and provides cantor and fast reactions. In my opinion he needs at least one more support ability and Cure / healing is characteristic of "faerie" units

Need time to think / test those resistance suggestions.
Elvish Seer: Change arcane resistance to 40%. Add Arcane resistance penetration amlas.(Consider allowing movement throughout unwalkable hexes as Lethalia does --- they have wings)
Yay. One down if no one else disagrees!
I do think dropping the Faerie to max +32 heal is appropriate.
I'm indifferent on 40 vs 32, so if everyone seems to prefer 32, that's fine by me.
Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Aevyn wrote:The suggestion for Overlord arcane resist was based on the description. The unit is apparently male half-fairy / touching metal hurts for him. Faerie units such as Seer / Incarnation have higher arcane resist as a result. Overlord shouldn't have -10 by that logic.
I like the idea with the resistance AMLAs. Why not make it a fae-line like the ghost- and skeleton lines? It could get significant increases in arcane resistance and lesser ones for the other magics, but slight decreases for blade and pierce (because those are normally from metal weapons and the few exceptions I would subsume under WINR).
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.
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firefox
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by firefox »

i have a problem with scenario 6 in chapter 3. (Darkest Darkness)

the win condition is to defeat all enemy leaders within 17 turns.
i cannot accomplish that at all, there are too many leaders too far away and the terrain is at my disadvantage.
the Campaign Help states that i have to find a narrow spot, recall some units, defeat the enemies on defence and then proceed to the exit in the sout-east edge of the map.
the only place to recall units are the keeps of the enemy leaders and when i reach the south-eastern edge (i tried it with all heroes) nothing happens.

is the Campaign Help really up to date? how am i supposed to win this scenario?

here is my save file
LotI1-Darkest_Darkness.gz
(189.06 KiB) Downloaded 95 times
may the source be with you
=(^.^)= nyan~
Raijer
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Raijer »

Using your file, i did it in 17 turns, which is a little slow, mostly because i couldn't reach the south-west leader fast.

Anyway, the help is definitely wrong, or outdated. My take was simply to split up the army in squads of 4 to 6 units and go in every direction. Use the leaders (mostly Lethalia and Argan in your case) to break through the first circle fast, then head straight for the corners, that's where the enemy leaders are.
Once you've gotten through the first circle, i would advise to send Lethalia alone against one of them (in my case, the north-east one, but you're not supposed to know it's the strongest one) and send Argan south-west (which i should have done to finish earlier). The bat leader can be killed fast, as well as the zombie one. Those 2 shouldn't take more than 4 turns once your squad have reached their army.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

I just played your save file and beat the scenario on turn 16. I lost two low level guys and used both healing potions, but I also played recklessly. One healing potion was for Lethalia, who tried to solo the Ancient Lich in the NE. She took out his army easily enough, but attacking him was nearly fatal, so she chugged a potion and finished him. Second was for Delly in the NW, who got hit a lot by the Death Knight. Argan solo'd the SW leader, although it was tighter than I'd have liked.

I cannot find my old part 1 save files, so I cannot compare immediately, but a few recollections come to mind.
Have you normally been recalling troops in chapter 3? I think it is really set up that you play only with the chapter 3 loyals, and not recall anyone. The main reason to recall someone, I think, is to strip their equipment to give to auto-recalled troops.
You have leveled up healing a lot on your leaders. I have never given any of my leaders improved healing. They need to be better at fighting.
Your Stormrider is slightly messed up. He appears to have a bugged AMLA on him, although I guess it isn't very significant.
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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

@firefox: I guess Raijer & dabber pretty much said it all. Here's my replay...
LotI1-Darkest_Darkness_replay.gz
(437.21 KiB) Downloaded 94 times
Disclaimer:
Spoiler:
I have a cunning plan.
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firefox
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by firefox »

thanks, i did it. :D
the walkthrough should really be updated ...
i had to use a healing potion, but now Lethalia can finally swing her staff 3 times.
i relied a lot on healing during the first two chapters, that's why i used so many healing AMLAs on my heroes.
recently i also increased their resistances to magical attacks, because the ghosts damaged them a lot.
may the source be with you
=(^.^)= nyan~
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Okay guys, is everyone okay with the current suggestions regarding elves?

Because it's obvious that the walkthrough for that scenario sucks, can you suggest something better? I guess that improved version is still far from perfect...
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firefox
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by firefox »

Dugi wrote:Because it's obvious that the walkthrough for that scenario sucks, can you suggest something better? I guess that improved version is still far from perfect...
maybe something like this:

Code: Select all

The Enemy Leaders are in the corners of the map. Divide your forces and use the power of your Heroes. Arcane damage is the best weapon here.
Tipp: The northern Leaders are stronger than the southern ones.
about the improvements of elves:
so far i only have Faerie Incarnations and 1 Elvish Assassin, so i don't know much about their power.
but reading the suggestions, it sounds good to me.
may the source be with you
=(^.^)= nyan~
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