Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
19
19%
Reaper
9
9%
Scythemaster
5
5%
Shadowalker
6
6%
Shadow Prince
11
11%
Siege Troll
4
4%
Sky Goblin
2
2%
Snow Hunter
12
12%
Soul Shooter
3
3%
Swordmaster
13
13%
Troll Boulderlobber
1
1%
Warlock
7
7%
Werewolf Rider
3
3%
Zombie Rider
3
3%
 
Total votes: 98

Spirit_of_Currents
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Spirit_of_Currents »

I have some suggestions.

1. If a unit has fire dragon legacy and it advances to sword mage or red mage, change its legacy to something that isn't so useless. I don't mind if bowman has fire dragon legacy because pierce and fire are different damage types. (Perhaps a good player would never give Champion Bowman dragon legacy.) Also change other cases where legacy is next to useless.

2. Make the effects of mayhem and potions end after a certain number of scenarios (or turns). I think the duration shouldn't vary so much.

3. Make Ranger able to use dagger like Trapper and make every unit in a unit tree able to use each other's items. It's annoying if you craft a halberd to Halberdier and Scythemaster can't use it because he uses a different weapon.

4. Make it possible to get an item or AMLA that prevents your unit from illuminating or darkening a given hex if it would lower your unit's damage or increase an enemy's damage.

5. Make a training scenario or several of them. You could play them repeatedly to get experience, items and gems. That would actually be less against the spirit of this game than Move Units Between Campaigns add-on. However, I think I wouldn't need that if LotI-Mod add-on made it possible to get items and gems in addition of special AMLAs. I have Custom Campaign add-on and would use it together with LotI-Mod. ^_^

Edit: I realized I can achieve what I talked about in the fifth suggestion by writing ":cl". I love debug mode!

Second edit: I am changing my signature so I add my previous one here because Dugi commented it.
"A wide-angle disintegration beam hits you!"
"Dudley, killed by calculus"
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Last edited by Spirit_of_Currents on September 18th, 2015, 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

1. How about making the dragon skills upgrade all attacks whose base damage type is the damage type of the attack? I mean that the upgrades to fire dragon's breath attack would upgrade also Elder Mage's fireball.
2. With mayhem, it kinda makes sense, but with potions, it's intentional that the duration is so variable - it does not last long on low level units, but it upgrades them a lot, making it very easy to level-up with them.
3. Scythemaster uses the same weapon as Halberdier, it just looks differently. For Ranger, I am following the visual part, if he used daggers, I would get bug reports that he has a sword and uses daggers.
4. Get the Book of Courage to the unit you don't want it to affect. Unlike other books, this one applies instantly. I could make them more common.
5. I haven't made LotI-Mod and having something like that affect only certain singleplayer campaigns is very problematic. I will consider making a training scenario.

I like your sig.
Spirit_of_Currents
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Spirit_of_Currents »

I like your idea about the effect of dragon legacies :) but I'm not sure whether there are other legacies needing improvement because of similar reasons. :hmm:
Do you think playing an especial training scenario would be better than repeating an "ordinary" scenario through debug?

Have you read Dudley's Dungeon? Did you get the joke?
There are very much electrical currents in my brain.
If I was a mainline unit, I would be a strong, resilient Inferno Drake.
Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

How about making the dragon skills upgrade all attacks whose base damage type is the damage type of the attack? I mean that the upgrades to fire dragon's breath attack would upgrade also Elder Mage's fireball.
I really like this idea too, but I think it would still have to be a significant increase, because things like Fire Dragon Legacy can get explosive and incinerate. Other examples would be: Celestial Messenger with Legacy of Light (The full illuminating stuff), Lich with Dark Dragon Legacy (drain on ranged for DDL) and with Ice Dragon Legacy (AoE and slow), Dragon Rider with Fire Dragon Legacy (I think this one should give something especially awesome ;) ), etc.
Not sure if this is the case, but I think Blackguard should be excluded from Legacy of Light because it has the darken effect automatically.
How would this affect Leth and Ephraim?
How would this interact with items like Ring of Iced Veins?
4. Get the Book of Courage to the unit you don't want it to affect. Unlike other books, this one applies instantly. I could make them more common.
I do not think this should get a significant increase, because you always get some of those books and I think it should still be somewhat special and not a tool you can equip 20 non-neutral units with. A moderate one might be ok. I always had enough for all my units in part II, but almost all of them have the correct form of illuminating or are neutral.

Edit: Not sure if this is a viable option (with sprites and everything), but how about giving Dragon Rider only Dragon Legacies and changing the type of dragon the rider has with getting the first (Ice, Darkness, Fire - and perhaps a unique Earth one (since there are earth dragons in your campaign already) only for this unit) and thereafter getting unique paths for AMLAs? Right now I think for one of the few level 5 units you can get, this unit is way to weak. I feel like it can´t compete with most of the level 4 fighting units, if you want leadership, you take Duke and the AMLAs do not feel interesting and somehow not rewarding at all. In part I it´s still a strong unit because you do not get that far AML, but I stopped using it in part II altogether, because with a lot of AMLAs other units seemed considerably stronger (Elvish fighting units, Celestial Messengers, Dwarvish units, some of the human fighting units, mages).

When I imagine a dragon rider I think of a beast right in the center of the fighting wrecking whole lines of enemies and standing strong where normal warriors falter.

Edit2:
3. Make Ranger able to use dagger like Trapper and make every unit in a unit tree able to use each other's items. It's annoying if you craft a halberd to Halberdier and Scythemaster can't use it because he uses a different weapon.
With some exceptions I would support this for weapons the previous units could use (not all units in a tree). Especially at the start its strange if your Pikeman suddenly can´t use spears anymore (especially since in part I there are almost no Polearm drops. It took me a long time to realize this weapontype even exists) and even more for the loss of wearing daggers (something everyone could fit onto their belt). I think it would be an interesting option to get an AMLA that gives those units an attack where they use the old weapon again (staffs for white mage line are an example where the weapon ist still wearable but not used). Somehow two of my Faerie Incarnations are able to wear staffs and two are not, do you have any idea how this came to pass? I do think the unit should be able to do so.
For some units this would obviously be strange like the Swordsman line after Spearman and there it´s more intuitive that the unit uses completely different equipment now.
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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Spirit_of_Currents wrote:1. If a unit has fire dragon legacy and it advances to sword mage or red mage, change its legacy to something that isn't so useless. I don't mind if bowman has fire dragon legacy because pierce and fire are different damage types. (Perhaps a good player would never give Champion Bowman dragon legacy.) Also change other cases where legacy is next to useless.
The simpler, and possibly better, implementation would be adding resistance penetration to those legacies. The problem I feel is right now the dragon legacies do too much stuff.
Spirit_of_Currents wrote:3. Make Ranger able to use dagger like Trapper and make every unit in a unit tree able to use each other's items. It's annoying if you craft a halberd to Halberdier and Scythemaster can't use it because he uses a different weapon.
Having a unit tree change weapons is a HUGE advantage. It means you get to stash a bonus weapon on an advanced unit and gain some of its advantages. For example, my Dragon Rider has Deathwhirl, which he cannot use in combat. But it still gives him Penetrate, so he doesn't have to use another equipment slot to get Penetrate. My Elvish Gryphon Rider is a God (more experience than anyone, including Efraim and Lethalia) largely because he has the Dark Sword stashed, granting +2 base attacks with the set items. In my most extreme case, I got the Tome of Liches and set about creating an Ancient Lich. I eventually created him from an Exterminator, because the Exterminator crafted a dagger, polearm and knife of Essence of Magic before turning into a Lich. That means my Lich, without using an equipment slot, is running +105% magic damage and Quintascence is worth an extra +15 elemental resist (3 Essence of Magic). Sure it is illogical, but its also fun and lets you do oddball things.


Dugi, undead normally don't have legacies. I thought when I previous made a lich from Necromancy that he kept his previous legacy, but when I did it this time, his legacy is gone. Which way do you intend for it to work?
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Spirit_of_Currents wrote:Do you think playing an especial training scenario would be better than repeating an "ordinary" scenario through debug?
Definitely. In a special scenario, the terrain may vary, enemies may vary, they may progressively become stronger, you might adjust item drops...
Spirit_of_Currents wrote:Have you read Dudley's Dungeon? Did you get the joke?
No, but the dialogue itself is funny.
Whiskeyjack wrote:I really like this idea too, but I think it would still have to be a significant increase, because things like Fire Dragon Legacy can get explosive and incinerate.
These might be specific to the breath attack.
Whiskeyjack wrote:Not sure if this is the case, but I think Blackguard should be excluded from Legacy of Light because it has the darken effect automatically.
How would this affect Leth and Ephraim?
How would this interact with items like Ring of Iced Veins?
It's a purpose that some units get legacies they don't need. Unless you figure something out, but in this case, it's quite unlikely.
Lethalia and Efraim can get any legacy too, it's still random.
Ring of Iced Veins has nothing to do with it.
Whiskeyjack wrote:I do not think this should get a significant increase, because you always get some of those books and I think it should still be somewhat special and not a tool you can equip 20 non-neutral units with. A moderate one might be ok. I always had enough for all my units in part II, but almost all of them have the correct form of illuminating or are neutral.
Okay, good to know.
Whiskeyjack wrote:Not sure if this is a viable option (with sprites and everything), but how about giving Dragon Rider only Dragon Legacies
This would make sense. Maybe I could break the rule of completely random legacies here.
Whiskeyjack wrote:I think it would be an interesting option to get an AMLA that gives those units an attack where they use the old weapon again (staffs for white mage line are an example where the weapon ist still wearable but not used).
Adding a new weapon to a unit would require drawing an animation with that weapon and that would look bad and is an immense amount of work.

The point is that the way it's now allows many interesting options and I like things that allow sophisticated methods or achieving power.
Whiskeyjack wrote:Somehow two of my Faerie Incarnations are able to wear staffs and two are not, do you have any idea how this came to pass? I do think the unit should be able to do so.
They should all be able to use staves. All wizardly units can use staves, they don't affect their physical attack if it's not a staff attack, though.
dabber wrote:The simpler, and possibly better, implementation would be adding resistance penetration to those legacies. The problem I feel is right now the dragon legacies do too much stuff.
Maybe they could give less damage and some penetration to compensate it. It's a good idea, IMO.
dabber wrote:Dugi, undead normally don't have legacies. I thought when I previous made a lich from Necromancy that he kept his previous legacy, but when I did it this time, his legacy is gone. Which way do you intend for it to work?
Units that begin as living have a legacy, units that begun as undead don't. If it behaved differently, it might be a bug, do you more info about it, like save files?
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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Dugi wrote:Units that begin as living have a legacy, units that begun as undead don't. If it behaved differently, it might be a bug, do you more info about it, like save files?
Attached is save file. End the Turn and the Exterminator in the NE should die and become a Lich. From my reading of the result (debug-inspect), there is no legacy attached to the Lich on the next turn. I'm several scenarios past that and have leveled into Ancient Lich with bunches of AMLAs, and no legacy option presented.
But since you said he should have it, I'll hack my latest save file to put it back. :)


On another note, that Ancient Lich used Koschei's Journal and the Wrath book, and the save file has both those under him about 10 times each.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Ah, I see. The transformation into lich via that ability removes all advancements, including the legacy which is defined as an advancement too. If a necromancer advances into a lich, he does not go through this procedure and retains the legacy, if he becomes a lich through that ability, he loses it. Do you want me to change it?
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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Dugi wrote:Ah, I see. The transformation into lich via that ability removes all advancements, including the legacy which is defined as an advancement too. If a necromancer advances into a lich, he does not go through this procedure and retains the legacy, if he becomes a lich through that ability, he loses it. Do you want me to change it?
You've come up with all these great ideas, so I'd defer to your judgement on what is "correct". Seems to me the two processes are thematically the same - death into Lich. In one case it's clear suicide (Necromancer leveling up into lich), but I don't see why that would be different than murdered into lich. If you change the code to keep the legacy, just make sure it is the same legacy, not just a random legacy.
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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Dugi wrote:the rule of completely random legacies
Now I know why my one mage always gets a melee upgrade option (Legacy of Titans).

Whiskeyjack wrote:Even if leveled to +16 heal the Celestial Messengers are not that usefull (as healers) and things like Legacy of Light feel nonexistant.
I've been arguing about the healing upgrades with Dugi, I think +3, +3 and +2 are not that great compared to the magical damage the enemies do. Maybe each upgrade could be +4?

dabber wrote:death into Lich. In one case it's clear suicide (Necromancer leveling up into lich), but I don't see why that would be different than murdered into lich.
When committing suicide he can take all kinds of preparations including rites and long invocations, when killed in battle it could be some hasty emergency exit?


Do the rewards from books grow if a unit takes longer to use it? I gave a Mauler and a Destroyer a ~Book of Fireballs, and when the younger finally was ready to take it they were even incinerating.


btw: Did anyone here ever have fun with the Foul Potion/Unholy Hunger? I replayed ~half a scenario to get rid of it...
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@dabber
I think that it would be more correct if he didn't lose the legacy when using that ability, because otherwise it would look suspicious.
nuorc wrote:Do the rewards from books grow if a unit takes longer to use it? I gave a Mauler and a Destroyer a ~Book of Fireballs, and when the younger finally was ready to take it they were even incinerating.
No.
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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

nuorc wrote:
Whiskeyjack wrote:Even if leveled to +16 heal the Celestial Messengers are not that usefull (as healers) and things like Legacy of Light feel nonexistant.
I've been arguing about the healing upgrades with Dugi, I think +3, +3 and +2 are not that great compared to the magical damage the enemies do. Maybe each upgrade could be +4?
Wow, I disagree there. I think the Faerie should drop to about 30 healing. Maybe +14/20/25/30. Others could still be +8/11/14/16. I think less healing could force real unit rotation and force truly resting a unit out of combat, and that would be different.
I generally consider the Celestial Messenger among the best units. Good in melee, good at ranged, highly mobile, multiple support functions.
nuorc wrote:btw: Did anyone here ever have fun with the Foul Potion/Unholy Hunger? I replayed ~half a scenario to get rid of it...
I've used it twice seriously. Once on a ghost type unit way back in part 1. I had to baby sit him somewhat with healers villages, but he did gain a bunch of max hitpoints. I also gave it to Efraim when he leveled at the start of a big scenario and he wracked up over 100 extra hitpoints (maybe over 200). But then they level, and the benefits go away. I decided it isn't worth the risk to use again. But it would also be way too good if the extra hitpoints were permanent.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

dabber wrote:I think the Faerie should drop to about 30 healing.
I never got any Faerie above +16... :D
I generally consider the Celestial Messenger among the best units. Good in melee, good at ranged, highly mobile, multiple support functions.
Yeah. Got four of'em, they're pretty good. I also have four Duelist Wizards, they can basically appear anywhere on the map and zap things. :twisted:
I've used [the Foul Potion] twice seriously. ...
I see. I just put it on a scout (because I could...), but it was a map with strong enemies, so no mass killings. 'Next time I look' he only had ~half the HP...

btw: Am I correct that there are no 'replacement' melee weapons for Elvish Gryphon Riders and no ranged weapons like thundersticks around?
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Jeffers0n
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Jeffers0n »

I like the new descriptions, but I noticed some mistakes,
-Mithral Armour
The descriptions says: ...I wonder what do their masters make.
should be: I wonder what their masters make.

-Cloak of burning retribution (I liked that one)
...I will set yout house on fire.
should be your instead of yout

nuorc:
btw: Am I correct that there are no 'replacement' melee weapons for Elvish Gryphon Riders and no ranged weapons like thundersticks around?
Claws(Grypons) and thundersticks can be crafted, but they don't drop
Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Wow, I disagree there. I think the Faerie should drop to about 30 healing. Maybe +14/20/25/30. Others could still be +8/11/14/16. I think less healing could force real unit rotation and force truly resting a unit out of combat, and that would be different.
Hm, I stand somewhere in between. I think that Faeries are probably to strong, but I also think that Messengers etc. are to weak at least with the step range of their AMLAs. My proposal would be to take the Faeries to a maximum of +32 (to keep the x8 factor; +16/22/27/32) and to give the messenger +8/12/16 healing. If you ever leveled a Faery healer you feel kinda betrayed when you have to use an AMLA for +2. After I realized this I only leveled healing on my Messengers after everything like Conviction, Legacy was full, movement speed satisfying, etc. It did not really feel like a viable option.
Another thing is the healing on Leth (and perhaps Ephraim), because they have those crazy amounts of other (and way cooler) stuff, leveling healing for +3/+2 is just not an option at all. I think Leth should follow the new Legacy of Light (up to +24). Not sure about Ephraim, he never was a healing type unit for me, so I didn´t even consider this for him.
Yeah. Got four of'em, they're pretty good. I also have four Duelist Wizards, they can basically appear anywhere on the map and zap things.
I use one of those just for style, but they really can´t compete in anything but defenses (and the zipping, obviously) and offense is almost to weak to take enemies down solo in later levels. My Duelist Wizard hits for something like 13-4, my Elder Mage is at 55-5 or 55-6 (admittedly with a little better Equipment and a considerably bigger amount of offensive AMLAs).
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
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