Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
14
19%
Reaper
6
8%
Scythemaster
4
5%
Shadowalker
4
5%
Shadow Prince
9
12%
Siege Troll
4
5%
Sky Goblin
1
1%
Snow Hunter
9
12%
Soul Shooter
3
4%
Swordmaster
13
17%
Troll Boulderlobber
0
No votes
Warlock
5
7%
Werewolf Rider
2
3%
Zombie Rider
1
1%
 
Total votes: 75

dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

@Xargon
I had to get used to scanning nearby demons for their attack damages. It is a bit annoying, but I got used to it and it doesn't bother me anymore.
At least on hard, you really have to pay attention to your equipment and your unit placement. Stack those elemental resistances up up up, and be careful with anyone with a low elemental resistance. The scariest attacks for me are absolutely the big cold attacks, although I have a couple guys that worry about arcane as well.
I'm playing the campaign for the second time and just recently got past that scenario. I didn't have enough equipment yet for the resistances I would like, and I consciously used a half dozen fodder units. The Dwarfs provide a great deal of cannon fodder as well. I did use at least one healing potion, and my southern offensive had to completely pull back once because of severe damage, but I killed all the leaders. At the moment I'm only using 9 real troops, plus the 2 leaders.
Raijer
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Raijer »

I asked for it but anyway: Got a bug in "Venimous sewers", i made Lethalia's whirlwind attack go up using wrath (Dugi's Wrath), then abused the resistances reducers and commandement around her to reach... 1400 dmg for each hit. That triggered Abaddon's dying lines but didn't kill him. So he should have died, and he didn't.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

William Ernest Henley
Whiskeyjack
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Location: Germany

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Never thought of combining Wrath with Whirlwind, that truly sounds to strong. I run it on a Dwarvish Berserker and thats already pretty op (I have a lot of suck on him and then combine him with strong aura units and reduction to kill bosses in one turn. But this would actually work without Wrath and suck most of the time if I believe my statistics window).

I have to agree with dabber, the only truly problematic Demons are the ones with stacking cold effects, the rest never reaches a point where they are truly able to completely wreck my plans (my units just have to survive one enemy turn, then a backline rotation and units with +40 healing take quick care of the rest).

On a side note: I think the Elvish healers are very strong (I probably would not call them too strong), but all the others feel almost useless. Even if leveled to +16 heal the Celestial Messengers are not that usefull (as healers) and things like Legacy of Light feel nonexistant.
Legacy of Light seems to be far weaker than the other Legacies to me, since the only really usefull thing it provides is "able to illuminate even the day" in combination with turning the unit lawful. Compared to the powerful (and AoE) ranged attacks Legacy of Ice or Legacy of Fire provide this feals really useless. Since I´m only fighting demons and other strange things for chapters now the anti-undead thing is a nice touch, but up to now not used even once. But I have to confess that I have no idea what could be added/changed with the exception of perhaps allowing leveling the healing up to +16. Or make the healing stack with natural healing of a unit, then it would at least be usefull on healers (and could help make Celestial Messengers and co. somewhat viable as healers).

Edit: Just realized that the illumination works pretty well vs the liminal enemies in inferno, but I have so many Celestial Messengers, Helmet of Paladins, etc. that I do not feel like I take much from that).
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.
Xargon
Posts: 86
Joined: January 19th, 2008, 2:27 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xargon »

@dabber and Dugi: Thanks for the tips. As I said, I only had to reload two or three times, finding a good positioning (and possibly not getting very unlucky with enemy attacks, I don’t remember). Then one well-placed blizzard made sure most demons died the following round… I finished on round 7, so there would have been time to kill the other leaders as well (and also to maneuver a bit with fodder). Is there any bonus (aside from some XP) for that?
I guess I was just surprised by the sudden jump in enemy strength, which I only really noticed when they attacked me - so I did not prepare specifically at the beginning of the scenario. Maybe I should have expected a lot of demons when I saw that demonologist. Or maybe I just got a bit unlucky with demon trait combinations.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@Raijer
I changed the code a bit, should be working now.

@Whiskeyjack
I run it on a Dwarvish Berserker and thats already pretty op
Oh, yeah, Berserker with wrath might be pretty tough. Is it totally overpowered or just a combination that works on that unit but other good combinations make other units equally powerful?
I have to agree with dabber, the only truly problematic Demons are the ones with stacking cold effects
Is cold stacking so bad? If it's far the worst, it might be nerfed somehow. Do you want it?
But I have to confess that I have no idea what could be added/changed with the exception of perhaps allowing leveling the healing up to +16.
Okay, added a couple of AMLAs that will let you get it to +24/turn.
Whiskeyjack
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Location: Germany

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Oh, yeah, Berserker with wrath might be pretty tough. Is it totally overpowered or just a combination that works on that unit but other good combinations make other units equally powerful?
I´m not sure, because as I said, the game does not calculate suck or Wrath and with the buff stacking I already get shown a chance >99% to kill guys like Abbadono with my Berserker (I slow and convict and put him under sorrow and have at least 2 of Royalty, Armor of the Friendly General, Legacy of Kings and Tome of Bards I/II behind my Berserker). I think the Berserker in itself is just to strong with all the buff stacking possibilities. Most times I do not get that much from wrath because with the things mentioned he already hits for 40 or more and the fight is over quickly (even alone he hits for ~30 damage per hit, at 11 attacks per fighting cycle). I have full Legacy of Titans, most of Book of Lycantrophy and pretty much all experience I could get onto him. My suggestion would be, to change the unit to lesser Berserk (2) or something like that, because nerfing wrath would not get to the core problems. I do not really like that, because it takes the core identity of the unit away but otherwise I´m not sure what could be done to address all the stacking. Perhaps weaken suck and/or auras on him considerably, to make it more of a risk to use the unit. (right now I often have the case that a lot of units attack the berserker meele because the AI thinks it can take him down with a couple units, but because it does not compute suck he stays at full health after every meele fight. Only ranged attacks can hurt him.)
Is cold stacking so bad? If it's far the worst, it might be nerfed somehow. Do you want it?
I do not think it should be nerfed (except if the rest gets slightly buffed to compensate), because I think over all the Demons are pretty fine. Cold stacking just stands out because it feels so much stronger than the other combinations. Not a problem per se.
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.
dabber
Posts: 398
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

What makes the Dwarf Berserker (and forms of lesser berserk) so awesome is suck. Give him enough suck and anything dies in melee. Unlike Whiskeyjack, I don't think I've ever seen the AI engage him in melee. If he needed nerfing, I would rather see something that restricts his resistances in ranged combat (or maybe reduces his dragon legacy ranged damage) because those would ensure he remains vulnerable in some form. I have used a Berserker some, and shredded bosses with him, but I don't typically use one because I concluded that performance on defense was far more important than anything else.
My primary anti-boss weapon was Efraim with Stormrend (Trickery to reduce defense to near 0) and a Destroyer with Jawbreaker (Mayhem plus 30 attacks to reduce damage to 0). But playing the second time I haven't found Jawbreaker yet and I'm approaching having to battle respawning super evil Lethalia! That means I'll be depending upon stacking Legacy of Kings, Tome of Bards, and Royality.

I generally push to make Demons harder, not easier. :)
The oddest thing about the cold attacks is they are huge damage and come with slow. It is a little bit surprising that their most dangerous pure damage attack also has slow. HOWEVER, arguably their arcane attacks are about as dangerous, except most units I use have innate arcane resistance. If you start at 20% resist arcane and add 50, you get 70, and don't get hurt much. If you start and -10 and add 50, you are still at 40 and taking twice as much damage as the first guy. I'm cheating to make myself a pair of ancient liches this time, so I may be really scared of demon arcane attacks in a bit.
Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Oh, cheating to try out some other units you otherwise wouldn´t get sounds pretty cool too. But not before I beat the campaign the first time, bad enough that I am never able to fully overcome my cancerloading.

My berserker does not even have a ranged attack, but the buffs (and not leaving him open on all fronts) make sure he gets out almost unscathed (or at least the +40 heal next turn bring him back to form). But yeah, suck + the resistances make him dang strong (still, without the resistances Abbadon could easily beat the suck with a little luck, I think). So perhaps: reduce all healing (suck, drain, healers, etc.) on him by 50%, reduce resistances from outside or in general by 50%? That would mean that he gets vulnerable and had to be used with great care, but could still take down the big guys if combined correctly? (and if he gets taken down quite far, he would not be in fighting shape again the next turn.)
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.
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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Whiskeyjack wrote:Oh, cheating to try out some other units you otherwise wouldn´t get sounds pretty cool too.
Oh yes! I 'accidentally' picked up a Grunt: he was standing on some loot and wouldn't move for the rest of the scenario, so I debugged him to my side. Having good fun with him as a level 4 + AMLAs, especially since I don't care too much about that undead crap that currently hangs around me as a posse. Looking back I regret not getting one or two pet-wolves. :D
I have a cunning plan.
Xargon
Posts: 86
Joined: January 19th, 2008, 2:27 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xargon »

I will try to ask this in a way so as not to spoiler myself:
In the scenario "An old f(r)iend", does killing this old f(r)iend have any implications later on, apart from receiving background information? It is more convenient not to (time to kill all enemies, not having to craft a different weapon, ...), but I don't really want to replay possibly several scenarios only to find out that it is something I should do. Damn completionist urges + limited time...
Raijer
Posts: 425
Joined: April 25th, 2013, 9:00 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Raijer »

Nope, you're supposed to kill him, but you can do without. That might make you miss one of the secrets though.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

William Ernest Henley
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

#Berserker
If a unit can handle Abaddon with four supports, a stack of elite items and tons of experience, I think that the unit is not overpowered. Aevyn had an Elvish Marshal who could kill bosses if he had good supports. But the idea to support the default 30 repetitions berserk with a 2 repetitions' berserk might be reasonable...

dabber's point about the possible exploitation of suck is valid. I slightly nerfed items with high suck.

#Demons
Okay, buffed most traits unrelated to cold (generally not those that seemed too dangerous already). The increase is not very significant.

#Other stuff
Whiskeyjack wrote:Oh, cheating to try out some other units you otherwise wouldn´t get sounds pretty cool too.
There is a way to get any normal unit (not demons, black souls, corrupted beings and other stuff that would be totally overpowered with AMLA and items).
Whiskeyjack wrote:But not before I beat the campaign the first time, bad enough that I am never able to fully overcome my cancerloading.
This add-on will surely suit your needs.
dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Dugi wrote:dabber's point about the possible exploitation of suck is valid. I slightly nerfed items with high suck.
I have been meaning to go through the item list and propose something like that, but I never got there. My basic idea was to subtract 1 from most items with suck 2+ on HARD difficulty. I figured a few should stay as is, like Mystic Occult Carpathia, Void, Bow of Plagiarism.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

I did not touch those three.
Xargon
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xargon »

Raijer wrote:Nope, you're supposed to kill him, but you can do without. That might make you miss one of the secrets though.
Now I think I should do that level again and be more careful about killing both him and all or almost all enemies. A pity about the 10 or 11 redeem counters that could be gotten from him, though :D .
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