Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Post Reply

Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
15
19%
Reaper
6
8%
Scythemaster
4
5%
Shadowalker
4
5%
Shadow Prince
9
12%
Siege Troll
4
5%
Sky Goblin
1
1%
Snow Hunter
10
13%
Soul Shooter
3
4%
Swordmaster
13
17%
Troll Boulderlobber
0
No votes
Warlock
5
6%
Werewolf Rider
2
3%
Zombie Rider
1
1%
 
Total votes: 77

dabber
Posts: 399
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Bug? The Book of Magical Swordplay is defined in the item and amla files, but is not in the drop lists.
User avatar
Dugi
Posts: 4960
Joined: July 22nd, 2010, 10:29 am
Location: Carpathian Mountains
Contact:

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

You're right. It will in the following version and all consecutive versions.
dabber
Posts: 399
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

I've been meaning to mention this for months and kept forgetting. The Faerie Incarnation attacks is "wine whip". "wine" as in alcoholic drink made from grapes. It should be "vine" as in curling plant.
User avatar
Dugi
Posts: 4960
Joined: July 22nd, 2010, 10:29 am
Location: Carpathian Mountains
Contact:

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Yes, you're right. Fixed it. It will cause some version incompatibility (the attack will lack icon for some time, AMLA affecting it will have no effect and will have to be taken again).
Shimozakura
Posts: 2
Joined: March 17th, 2015, 9:52 am

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Shimozakura »

Hello

I downloaded and started playing the campaing just a couple of days ago on mac and just got my first soul eater improvement for Elfraim. Or would have, but it did not seem to do anything. I tried loading several times and picking different improvements, but the improvements were not implemented sufficiently no matter what I picked. Does anybody else have this problem or ideas how to fix it?
Operating system: OS X (version 10.9.2.)
Game version: 1.12.1.
Invincibles version: Downloaded during the first or second week of March

As for first impressions of the campaign itself, I'm both very impressed and a little disappointed. For me a good Wesnoth campaign is all about good map design, interesting leveling options and a nice plot running on the background. This far I'm happy to say that the campaign this far has really hit the marks concerning map design and leveling, and I for one would gladly see extended unit trees and the advanced leveling mechanic become standard features of the main game. I do think there is a bit too much of everything, but that is just my personal preference. However, I think the background story currently has a huge potential that is being let down by problems in the dramatic structure.

What I mean about the huge potential is that this far, the scenarios have been quite well constructed and paced. There are smaller events leading to big events and many scenarios have special objectives or twists arising from the plot, which keeps things interesting. You could say that the bare bones of the drama are in a good shape. However, the drama and the dialogue, or the flesh on the bones so to speak, has some problems and feels clumsy overall. Here I'm talking about the dratic justification of plot events and the way the dialogue feels.

For dialogue, it often feels like the characters are not genuinely discussing with one another, but saying things aloud in order to tell the player things. This is mainly because it often feels that the characters are stating facts that they could not possibly know, such as the loyalties of enemy factions or knowledge about the workings of difficult magical rituals from outside any of the characters' areas of expertice. It would be more believeable if the characters gained knowledge about these events from supporting characters, books, by talking diplomacy with enemy factions through messengers, etc.

[This paragraph contains spoilers about the beginning of the first campaign]
The problem is the same for drama: not all events are sufficiently justified. A good example is the chain of events leading to our heroes becoming liches. They learn necromancy from a death knight in order to escape their prison, which is good, but after that no good reason is given for why they actually decide to go through the transformation. Sure there is Lethalia's ambition, but Elfraim seems quite happy to go along with it (you would think he would have at least some moral qualms or be terrified of dying or something), and there is no reason why the two of them could not escape the dungeon while remaining mortals. Even when plot points are justified, the only justificaion sometimes is that the characters simply "feels it" (yes, Lethalia is a seer, but it's still a sloppy way to build drama). Instead of that, awarding knowledge to the player as a result of meeting scenario objectives would improve plot consistency. For example, in the present campaign the existance and location of the lich poison is already known to Lethalia, who comes up with the knowledge at a little too conveniently. Instead, why not have Hephaestos tell about it to the characters at her moment of death, thereby making it seem that telling about the poison was all her plan to cheat death by taking over Elfraim's spirit in the first place. I feel that addressing some of these problems, that could really be done just by tweaking dialogs, could really help to make the campaign shine.
[End spoilers]

What I'm basically saying here, is that this is an awesome campaign with a massive amount of work being put into it, that could be even more awesome with just a little polishing. Despite its problems, I'm having great fun playing it, and I look forward to see how the project develops.
dabber
Posts: 399
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Shimozakura wrote:I downloaded and started playing the campaing just a couple of days ago on mac and just got my first soul eater improvement for Elfraim. Or would have, but it did not seem to do anything. I tried loading several times and picking different improvements, but the improvements were not implemented sufficiently no matter what I picked. Does anybody else have this problem or ideas how to fix it?
Are you understanding what soul eater does correctly? The effect of the soul eater "level" is to give you more AMLA options when you "normally level". Until you hit the next experience level, the soul eater improvement is not visible.
OdinOverland
Posts: 5
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 11:55 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by OdinOverland »

Dugi wrote:
OdinOverland wrote:Evil/Dark Lethalia is out of her recruiting zone, attacking and defending. When one of our team reaches her throne then the friendly, team-up conversation begins. Afterward she is now on the player's red team.
I tested it right now, she wasn't leaving it, but my save file could have been a bit outdated. Do you have a save file where she does that?
I deleted my saves - let me replay it and see what I can get.
OdinOverland
Posts: 5
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 11:55 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by OdinOverland »

Dugi wrote:
OdinOverland wrote:Evil/Dark Lethalia is out of her recruiting zone, attacking and defending. When one of our team reaches her throne then the friendly, team-up conversation begins. Afterward she is now on the player's red team.
I tested it right now, she wasn't leaving it, but my save file could have been a bit outdated. Do you have a save file where she does that?
I could not recreate the 'Dead by turn 3' scenario, but these save files show her outside of the keep. Wesnoth version 1.12.1 & LOTI version 3.1.12 are used.
Attachments
cruelty.zip
compressed save files for tunnels of cruelty
(5.53 MiB) Downloaded 70 times
Raijer
Posts: 425
Joined: April 25th, 2013, 9:00 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Raijer »

Not sure if this is a bug, but seems like the javelineer in "The Assassination" (Part I, chap 1) always drop an item, while standing on another. Is that intended ?
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

William Ernest Henley
Shimozakura
Posts: 2
Joined: March 17th, 2015, 9:52 am

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Shimozakura »

[/quote]Are you understanding what soul eater does correctly? The effect of the soul eater "level" is to give you more AMLA options when you "normally level". Until you hit the next experience level, the soul eater improvement is not visible.[/quote]
Ah, ok. Thanks for letting me know. I'm still very much green around the ears when it comes to this particular campaign.
User avatar
Dugi
Posts: 4960
Joined: July 22nd, 2010, 10:29 am
Location: Carpathian Mountains
Contact:

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@Shimozakura
dabber was right about the soul eater misunderstanding.

I see that you have a minor problem with my writing. Your sentence 'it often feels like the characters are not genuinely discussing with one another, but saying things aloud in order to tell the player things' is quite accurate. I am somewhat aware of this problem, but the solution isn't easy. I am not very good at writing. My sentences are and have always been quite clumsy (in any language). Furthermore, I have learned English quite recently, if I read this text ten years ago, most likely I would even not understand this reply. My writing should be a bit better in some later parts of the campaign because I improved my knowledge of English and maybe also a bit my writing skill from the time when I was writing the first parts. On other other hand, I would most likely never write this if I was significantly better at writing. I always liked making up stories, I wanted to write a book, but I sucked at it and it and gave up. It drove me to write video game stuff instead.
If you suggest that tweaking the dialogues could improve it so significantly, all I can do is to invite you to help me with that. I doubt that you have the time to do so much stuff, but there is a chance...

That plot hole you saw there is indeed there, I realised it and some point and used it to add more plot elements.

@OdinOverland
Thanks for the save files and the effort to recreate them, I'll see what's going on and what's the cause.

@Raijer
The drops are seemingly random, but they are deterministic to some extent. The random seed that is used for drops returns when you load the game, so if the third unit that died after you saved drops something, the third unit you killed after loading that save will also drop an item, and it will be the same item. Some other things use the same random seed, so using them will break this. I suppose that you aren't using any of them and as a result, your drops are deterministic.
Raijer
Posts: 425
Joined: April 25th, 2013, 9:00 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Raijer »

@Dugi: I thought the same, so I tried restarting from "An orcish assault", and yet again, got the drop. And it's not always the same item. That really seems strange. Or is it that no matter what happens, the first one you kill in "The Assassination" drops an item ?

EDIT After playing a little more, all of the units in "the assassination" drop items.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

William Ernest Henley
User avatar
Dugi
Posts: 4960
Joined: July 22nd, 2010, 10:29 am
Location: Carpathian Mountains
Contact:

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Well, I have checked it out and the explanation is kinda different. In that scenario, the chance that a unit will drop an item is 99%. The reason for it is that you cannot defeat many of these units and you should be rewarded for the effort. And grab some items when you don't have many of them.
hkBst
Posts: 3
Joined: March 19th, 2015, 9:23 am

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by hkBst »

In the first scenario after the little tutorial, An Orcish Assault, Efraim starts with the Sword of Krux equipped, which is supposed to give a +3 damage modifier among other things. His standard melee attack is 4-4, so a 7-4 with special sword is expected, but instead it shows 9-4. When unequipping the sword and equipping it again, instead the presumably correct 7-4 attack stats are calculated.

Similarly without the sword and potion Efraim's blade, impact and pierce resistances are -30, -20, -20. After taking the potion of Steel Skin, which is supposed to increase physical resistances by 25%, his resistances are 2.5, -5.6, 10, but after un- and re-equipping the blade which confers 15% blade resistance, his blade resistance goes to 13.75.

Finally in the tutorial the Sword of Krux actually goes to 11-4 after you create the Twinkling sword and stays like that after having given it away to Delenia. Delenia becomes a lvl3 when you take off her armor, and her resistances with the armor do not seem to be affected in the first place. And what happens with the armor when you start the first scenario? Did they just leave it in the tutorial room?

I would like to add that I think what you have tried to build is really interesting, but it is very sad that almost all calculations seem to be wrong and/or wrongly timed. Also very surprising for a campaign which seems to have advanced far beyond such basics. Maybe it is just me? I'm using wesnoth 1.12.1...
User avatar
Dugi
Posts: 4960
Joined: July 22nd, 2010, 10:29 am
Location: Carpathian Mountains
Contact:

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

I am quite sure that Efraim does not get more damage than he deserves, the 2 points of extra damage can be daylight bonus. The potion adds more resistance because it adds the resistance so that he would take 25% less damage, so if has normally negative resistances, he'll get slightly more than 25% (if he had positive resistances, he would get less); also the effect on impact resistance is decreased because blunt weapons were always used to break through armour. It's calculated correctly, although the formula is a bit unclear.

If I recall correctly, the armour remains in your inventory. Delly does not lose any defence because that part was just to instruct you how to use some features and to show that Efraim was a jerk at the beginning. Tutorial does not use the usual calculations, so it's possible that I changed something and forgot to change it everywhere and some discrepancies appeared there, but later all should be conform.

Try to play it for some time and see if there are more errors or just there is some confusion in the tutorial.
Post Reply