Legend of the Invincibles

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
10
16%
Reaper
6
9%
Scythemaster
4
6%
Shadowalker
3
5%
Shadow Prince
7
11%
Siege Troll
3
5%
Sky Goblin
1
2%
Snow Hunter
7
11%
Soul Shooter
3
5%
Swordmaster
12
19%
Troll Boulderlobber
0
No votes
Warlock
5
8%
Werewolf Rider
2
3%
Zombie Rider
1
2%
 
Total votes: 64

orian34
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by orian34 »

Huum, for the Balance Legacy :
-Neutral
and some points that could be interesting :
1-Only 10% of damage but all your resistance gets to 150%
2-All units around the one can only attack once.
3-Canno't die but canno't kill(can't abuse cause the turn limit)
I don't know, a legacy that makes a lot of defence things but lower a lot your power...
And for the imp traits, perhaps having rarely some ITEMS on them(no droping)!!!So they would get the weapon attack etc...(Fear the doombringer imp :twisted: )
Only storming some tought...
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@dabber
Re Re Cone, Explosive / slow , poison
Yeah, I forgot how have I intended it originally. Slow does not usually propagate on nearby enemies because it is very powerful. That rare weapon special allows for mass slow, but it's quite hard to obtain, it's granted by only one item and Efraim has it as AMLA. I corrected the description of cone and prevented it from slowing the additional targets (poison still spreads). I removed the slow from the usual explosive altogether (poison can still affect multiple enemies). Thanks for reminding me this.

Re Re Inferno portals
Now, the crap got serious. This bug was there from the time I first wrote it. The problem was that there was that event ids were designed primarily to prevent duplication and not allow their easy removal and I used them a lot for event removal, forgetting that I can't use the same event id more than once because that wasn't very related to the thing I was doing. Corrected it, the fix is attached, try it. It was a larger change, also removing some code redundancy, it might speed up the loading of the second part of the campaign by a percent or two.
The change also has a large impact on the chapter's difficulty, so please try how that will work. It may set the chapter's difficulty to sufficient levels.

@orian34
Balance Legacy sounds lame, let's call it Legacy of Equilibrium instead.
-90% damage and +50% multiplicative to all resistances - I see this still quite strong, because there are some units that are useful for massive slow and debilitating abilities, you know, support, and this boost to resistances could make them really tanky. 25% to all resistances and -50% damage would be better in my opinion.
All units around the one can only attack once - I don't understand. It happens pretty rarely that a unit can attack more than once. If it was that when it attacks, it tries to hit once and the attack ends, it would be crazily powerful.
Cannot die bug cannot kill - so that you could send him to let a load of enemies have fun while your other units deal with other enemies. Also, most of the units that fought him a lot can be then killed with one hit from Efraim's fireblast.
I think that a legacy like that would have the supportive power highly exceeding even the best support units with all AMLA points in support and defensive gear in all slots. Furthermore, it would be able to distract a whole army and thus incredibly awesome when used strategically in scenarios where enemies come from more directions.

The idea of items on enemies was already discussed, the problem is that one item does not make a unit significantly more powerful.
Attachments
chapter9_utils.cfg.zip
Unpack and use it to replace the file with the same name in the utils directory in the campaign folder.
(48.95 KiB) Downloaded 88 times
OdinOverland
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by OdinOverland »

dabber wrote:As I read it, the new armour Unsung Odes never drops, because it is not in the drop list. I think you put 234 (Unthought Memories) in the armour drop lists instead of 235.
Dugi wrote:Yes, you're right. Fixed it. Thanks for reporting.
What version of the campaign was this fixed in? I have still not come across it in v3.1.8
Aevyn
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Aevyn »

@ Odin Overland

Dugi hasn't uploaded the new version of LotI with the change mades yet. He usually compiles the bugs and suggestions on this forum and uploads the modications in one giant bulk

@Dugi

I took a while before responding to some of what you mentioned to think about it
That's damn good point. I complained about something and then I suggested almost the same thing myself. The idea of Divine Legacy does not sound bad, I just can't quite decide what kinds of advancements would fit it without nearing something that already exists. Could be pretty much a completely new ability set, a few wild throws:
1. ordo ex chao - if the unit with the ability attacks a unit that is chaotic and in darkness, the unit becomes lawful
2. divine retribution - every time a unit with this ability takes 100 damage (I mean that it would have a counter for damage taken), it gets a strong wrath buff
3. zeal of faith - every time a unit with this ability takes 50 damage, adjacent units get a strong wrath buff
4. resurrection - if an adjacent ally of a unit with this ability would die, it has a chance to be partially healed (the roll would be repeatable and thus hard to exploit)
I really like number 1 (ordo ex chao). That's extremely creative. The reverse could also be added; attacking a lawful unit in light makes it chaotic. Or would you prefer making it only against chaotic units? I also like number 4. Furthermore, I'd like to suggest another idea:

Reincarnation: When an adjacent level 3+ ally and/or enemy unit is killed, it is revived as a spearman on the player's side. What do you think?
Fire Dragon Legacy - breath damage peaks at 20-6 instead of the 12-6 that was before, added it cone special and a possibility to gain explosive, increases blade and impact resistances (total 7%)
Ice Dragon Legacy - breath damage peaks at 17-6 instead of the 12-6 that was before, added it a possibility to gain cone special, increases blade and pierce resistances (total 7%)
Dark Dragon Legacy - breath damage peaks at 18-6 instead of the 12-6 that was before, added it a possibility to gain focused weapon special, increases fire, cold and arcane resistances (total 7%)
Nice improvements, but I still think Fire and Ice are subpar. The problem is while they'd be viable in the first campaign, they'd be underpowered in the second with the resistances of level 5+ enemies (damage-wise). So the question is how to balance them between LotI 1 & 2. Ice has slow and thus it's much better than Fire. There's an effect that does fire damage over time (sort of like poison). Perhaps consider adding that to Fire Dragon Legacy?

Another option would be to have different legacies available across different campaigns. Not sure; maybe someone else has input on the dragon legacies in general.

____________________________

One last thing

Though I really love the idea of units having two legacies (one gained after experience), keep in mind that there may be AMLA conflictions between legacies.
Last edited by Aevyn on January 19th, 2015, 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
dabber
Posts: 395
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Re Inferno portals
Glad my reading of the event structure (multiple events with same id) was somewhat correct.
I do notice that the chapter9_utils.cfg file (still) contains #define INFERNO_SPAWN_POINT twice.
I may not have a chance to try it out for a bit.


@Legacies
I've finally given in and am taking Legacy AMLAs on most of my guys, and I don't mind the existing (aka old) dragon legacies so much.
On paper, I have to say that Dugi's latest changes to the breath weapon power (as listed in this thread) don't seem balanced between the three. Ice and Dark are automatically MUCH better than Fire because they have slow. As long as the damage amounts are somewhat close (15% difference is damage is certainly close), the one with slow is tons better. A guy with no ranged attack otherwise (destroyer, swordmaster, etc) makes that even more true, because when defending he just wants to do something and live, but he will almost always attack with his own melee attack.
Wussel
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Wussel »

There was a discussion on the trait antisocial (German English).

I would suggest to call it obnoxious (American English).

What would the British say?
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Tom_Of_Wesnoth
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth »

What does the trait do, Wussel?
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ChaosRider
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by ChaosRider »

trait - http://wesnoth.wikia.com/wiki/Trait

In short, traits are effects (in wml, i dont use lua so i wont say that you can add/set trait by lua) which change units stats like hp, mp, res, dmg to add a bit rpg spirit to units and make each of them more unique.
Creator of WOTG (+2880 units), MWC (+615 units), SurvivorsArea, RandomColosseum, RC WOTG, RC MWC, ColosseumRandomClonesBattle, BetweenDarknessAndLight, StealingWeapons, MoreUnitsForms, MoreDamageTypes, CanBeOnlyOne, ColosseumOneWinner, BonusSpam, CriticalStrike - available at 1.12 Wesnoth server.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@OdinOverland
I haven't uploaded these changes yet. The campaign is quite large and thousands of people downloading it after every bug fix would be quite resource heavy for the server.

@Aevyn
Nice pun about that creativity. Inverse ordo ex chao could be done too.

That reincarnation idea is fine, but I am not getting how is that related to reincarnation. It should be rather resurrection or recreation, I think. I'll think of it.

Based on your advice, I have adjusted the damage of these legacy breaths. Fire had its damage increased to 21-6 maximum and added incinerate (single target only). Dark was nerfed to 15 - 6 damage (still can have focused).

The two parts of the campaign can have different rules, it's not a problem to implement pretty much any differences. The differences have to be small to avoid confusion such as different drop lists, but slightly different numbers should work as well. The stats of a half of items depend on difficulty already.

@dabber
If something is defined twice, the second definition applies. And in this case, the second definition was the intended one, so it had no effect. I tested it, btw.

@Wussel
It's a(n) (dis)ability, not a trait. Afaik, obnoxious is not strictly American English, it is used in British English as well. It could be a replacement, but I am not very persuaded if it is a better name than antisocial. The renaming topic was raised when suggestions were made to make it a positive ability and the changes suggested would make that unit... less obnoxious.

@Tom_Of_Wesnoth
It is an ability that reduces the damage of adjacent allies. The unit is otherwise strong, this is its drawback. And, seeing that you don't really know what we're talking about, can you please read a few pages back if you want to understand?

@ChaosRider
In this campaign, there are also traits that add new attacks, abilities, weapon specials etc. Traits can do pretty much anything.
Last edited by Dugi on January 20th, 2015, 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tom_Of_Wesnoth
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth »

Dugi wrote: @Tom_Of_Wesnoth
It is an ability that reduces the damage of adjacent allies. The unit is otherwise strong, this is its drawback.
That is a hard one to name. Detriment?
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Wussel
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Wussel »

Well the "ability" has a name.

Basically the use of social skills to piss of others, which makes them fight worse.

Abuse of social skills would be called obnoxoius by Americans. European style would be: antisocial.

Not to be confused with "not social at all". That would be more like "looner" in American style.

As Dugi pointed out the discussion was more about gaining benefits for the unit than rephrasing the ability.

However I would like to point out a few ideas about negative leadership. First idea is that it works only on units of lesser level! Meaning essentially "horrible bad teacher" or so. Next limitation could be that it works only on units of certain type or alignment. It could than work on enemy units too.

These are of course all weaker versions of this "antisocial" ability. However the ability works fine as it is.
dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Twice Chapter 9 utils has qusets.something instead of quests.something.

Playing Tainted Shores changed quests.lilith from 2 to 1. Reading it closely, I am pretty sure the logic in INFERNO_LILITH_SPAWN is flawed somewhere. My guess is it should only set quests.lilith to 1 if quests.lilith does not exist, while currently it does it all the time.

Scenario 9.10 Fortess of Blackened Dreams does
{SPAWN_ONLY_ONCE boss1 sc10_boss1}
{SPAWN_ONLY_ONCE boss2 sc11_boss2}
and more like that
but I all those should start with sc10, not sc11.

At the start of that scenario, Efraim says "Yes. I cannot cancel it, because ..."
I think "cancel" should be replaced with "avoid" or "skip" or "bypass".

While looking at quest bugs, I noticed the many active variables in the scenario. Bunches look like they should have been cleared previously. I admit that isn't truly necessary, but it seems worthwhile to try and clear up some of them. The largest variable is undead_store, which is created in 6.5 Friends No More and never used. Other large ones include Vritra_store, dodge_locs, terrains_for_castle, Lethstore_illusions, etc, etc
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@Wussel
Interesting idea to create a weaker version of this ability that he would annoy only units of lower levels. I'll think of it.

@dabber
Thanks for pointing out that typo, fixed it. Its effect were quite weak.

Fixed the problem in INFERNO_LILITH_SPAWN, you were right about the cause. Its ill effect affected only objectives and some dialogue, so it was hard to notice.

The weird macro arguments in Fortress of Blackened Dreams had no ill effect, but it was an oddity so I corrected it. Also corrected the dialogue.

I fixed those. If you find more, report it. They bloat save files.

Thanks for your reports.
_______________
EDIT: Good news, everyone. It seems that the problems with slow AI were finally dealt with. Using mattsc's micro_ai_fast instead of the default AI seems to be a fix for all issues. The basic difference is that it does not contemplate about the order of attacking, just find the best target for every unit. So it can kill a unit with a needlessly strong unit if it could be killed by a weaker unit and the stronger unit occupied elsewhere or clog a unit with weaker attackers, leaving no space for stronger ones to attack. The side effects are that from the next version, AI will be a bit more chaotic, thus a bit weaker and less predictable.
dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Dugi wrote:EDIT: Good news, everyone. It seems that the problems with slow AI were finally dealt with. Using mattsc's micro_ai_fast instead of the default AI seems to be a fix for all issues. The basic difference is that it does not contemplate about the order of attacking, just find the best target for every unit. So it can kill a unit with a needlessly strong unit if it could be killed by a weaker unit and the stronger unit occupied elsewhere or clog a unit with weaker attackers, leaving no space for stronger ones to attack. The side effects are that from the next version, AI will be a bit more chaotic, thus a bit weaker and less predictable.
Are you intending to apply that AI universally, to a few selected things (ex chapter 9 plants), or somewhere in between? I feel that it is really only needed in a few places such as the big scenarios (ex jungle hell). I would not want to see main enemy armies dumber (weaker) across the board. Even in Jungle Hell, I think there would be a useful performance improvement if you kept the big spawns with the full AI but changed the many random guys to a faster AI, although I believe that requires rethinking side assignments.
I notice that the AI, generally, is smarter than it was 6 months ago. That is good.

PS Inferno portals work properly now.
dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

On the excess variables front, there are several big ones about equipment that contain the same thing many times. attack_gauntlets, attack_amulet, attack_armour, attack_ring, etc. I don't see where they came from or what they might mean.

Menu Item definitions from earlier scenarios/chapters still exist in the save file, such as "Build an encampment". They don't show up in the game, but they are in the save file.

Other variables that should be cleared when their scenario ends:
found_elves (7.4 Last Survivors)
found_him (6.1 The Awakening)
leader_chosen (chapter 6)
side_XX_original_team_name, side_XX_original_user_team_name (and many variations created by the macro NEUTRAL_SIDE)
turn_number_nightday (Arctic Wasteland and The Desert)
turn_number_repeating (Arctic Wasteland)
original_x (misprint in chapter9_utils.cfg saying origina_x)

Variables I think can be cleared
identical_count (items)
can_take
can_take_this_weapon
iw
ot
recruited_unit_random_variation
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