Khalifate Era

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alpha1
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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by alpha1 » November 9th, 2014, 9:14 pm

iceiceice wrote:Also, it might be easier to wait until there actually is a Khalifate campaign and then rename it.
I would like to point out that there is still no mainline drakes campaign. The faction that has been around since the very beginning. We can wait years or decades until somebody comes around to create "khalifate"-campaign. Or maybe they will, like drakes, remain without a campaign at all.

The faction had been causing controversies from the very beginning. Controversies are not good for the community, especially if these controversies are fuelled by real life implications. Many people perceive khalifate as a problematic faction alltogether, the naming being just a part of the problem. Others disagree. So if we can't remove the main source of controversies, which is initial faction design, it would be wise to remove at least the real life component of it.

And remove it now, taking into consideration feelings of people who are now involved in the debate. And not the possible artistic difficulties of the hypothetical campaign designer, who may or may not eventually appear.
Temuchin Khan wrote: Or for something different: Sons of Zamarkand.
+1 I was also thinking in this general direction. The full name might be a bit cumbersome, but "Zamarkand" is spot on, sounds oriental, but without any possible negative real world connotations.
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Temuchin Khan
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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by Temuchin Khan » November 9th, 2014, 9:19 pm

More faction name ideas:

Sons of Fatima

Osmanlis

Rashidun

I'm leaning toward Rashidun.

EDIT: Corrected "Rashidi" to "Rashidun."
Last edited by Temuchin Khan on November 10th, 2014, 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Wintermute
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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by Wintermute » November 9th, 2014, 10:23 pm

alpha1 wrote:
iceiceice wrote:Also, it might be easier to wait until there actually is a Khalifate campaign and then rename it.
I would like to point out that there is still no mainline drakes campaign. The faction that has been around since the very beginning. We can wait years or decades until somebody comes around to create "khalifate"-campaign. Or maybe they will, like drakes, remain without a campaign at all.

The faction had been causing controversies from the very beginning. Controversies are not good for the community, especially if these controversies are fuelled by real life implications. Many people perceive khalifate as a problematic faction alltogether, the naming being just a part of the problem. Others disagree. So if we can't remove the main source of controversies, which is initial faction design, it would be wise to remove at least the real life component of it.
In fact, Drakes were not around since the beginning. In the beginning, Wesnoth was a single player game (Here is some great stuff shadowm wrote about the early days). Then stuff was added. Then more stuff. Then - wait for it - more stuff. In between the adding of more stuff, sometimes existing stuff gets changed. And then we add more stuff. Often there are complaints about this stuff. Often there are calls and clamoring for old stuff that a small vocal minority of people really like or put in, and it stays in as long as that small, vocal minority sticks around to defend it. For example, the default timer settings... But I digress (sorry, couldn't resist)! The point here is, the name is in and maybe it will change but it's not going to change "soon".

The introduction of Drakes was a massive change to the game. Maps had to suddenly deal with flying things in a big way! We are still seeing the fallout of this, as more cave and deep water keeps creeping into them. Putting this guys in is going to be a long slow road. I have no idea how long it will be before they are feeling as natural as Drakes do now, or if they will have been changed a lot or a little but I would expect it to take awhile. Writing in a hurry, apologies if it's rough.
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alpha1
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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by alpha1 » November 9th, 2014, 10:43 pm

Wintermute wrote: In fact, Drakes were not around since the beginning.
Yeah, i know factions were added gradually and Drakes weren't there since the *very* very beginning. But 1.0 seemed like beginning enough for the sake of the argument. And I personally remember them since 1.2 :geek:
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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by sedmi_patuljak » November 10th, 2014, 7:06 am

I dont think that Kalifate is offending name, it is like we call Vatican to be offending name, considering the fact that Kalifate is Kalifate is an equivalent to Vatican in Islamic fate.

On the other hand, I do not think that Kalifate will blend together with other factions of Wesnoth. If one faction would be added to the Wesnoth I feel the best would be some nomad/Hunic like faction. Just my opinion though.

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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by wolkenwand » November 10th, 2014, 7:55 am

I feel weird to play with or against khalifa in this fantasy game, its the only real world faction that exist in fantasy setting game. You have wesnoth that similiar with europe but it is a vague country without clear religion, i dont mind if the developer put vague arabic faction. i like fantasy game, but i prefer play it with ease without burden of mind. The name Khalifate itself is not offending, but the usage of that name in this game is not apropiate.

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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by pyrophorus » November 10th, 2014, 9:38 am

I like the "Wassanids" idea.
By the way, we already have some sort of Arabic faction in "To Land Unknown" and AFAIK, there was not such conflict about it.

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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by Temuchin Khan » November 10th, 2014, 3:05 pm

wolkenwand wrote:I feel weird to play with or against khalifa in this fantasy game, its the only real world faction that exist in fantasy setting game.
I'll never understand why people freak out about this. Here's how I see it: The original five Wesnoth factions are pretty much what you would expect of typical modern Western fantasy settings. The Drakes skew more toward the fantastic, the Khalifate more toward the mundane. It seems to me that the Khalifate fits just fine, when you look at it that way.

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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by tekelili » November 10th, 2014, 6:20 pm

Temuchin Khan wrote:
wolkenwand wrote:I feel weird to play with or against khalifa in this fantasy game, its the only real world faction that exist in fantasy setting game.
I'll never understand why people freak out about this. Here's how I see it: The original five Wesnoth factions are pretty much what you would expect of typical modern Western fantasy settings. The Drakes skew more toward the fantastic, the Khalifate more toward the mundane. It seems to me that the Khalifate fits just fine, when you look at it that way.
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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by Velensk » November 10th, 2014, 8:08 pm

I think in general if you use those two images it will always be easier to parse the one on the right because the drakes are very visually distinct. If you did that same picture with say fencers instead, it'd still be harder to parse.

Personally I think people who have trouble with it simply need to broaden their mind to a greater fantasy. There's a set of generic things one comes to expect from "fantasy" that are used because preform a function and/or because they fill an expectation and are what people are familiar with. I don't think this is a problem but the problem comes when people come so attached to that isolated set of tropes that they can't imagine other things fitting.

There are plenty of good fantasies out there that draw inspiration from cultures other than medieval Europe and/or in combination with medieval Europe and in most fantasies the different races or cultures use magic differently/to different extents. I really don't see how Wesnoth is any different. Of course, it is worth noting that different things fit to different extents. Personally though, I find the Khalifa far easier to fit in than a lot of the stuff from UtBS despite UtBS being cannon.
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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by Paulomat4 » November 10th, 2014, 9:39 pm

Btw wouldn't it be a good idea to make the kaliphate appear in utbs? The scenarios play mostly in the desert and one could explain the lack of magic with the loss of knowledge because of the cataclysm.

I personnally never had a problem with the kaliphate, neither necause of the name, nor because of them not fitting into the classic fantasy theme.
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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by shadowm » November 10th, 2014, 10:07 pm

Paulomat4 wrote:Btw wouldn't it be a good idea to make the kaliphate appear in utbs? The scenarios play mostly in the desert and one could explain the lack of magic with the loss of knowledge because of the cataclysm.
I don’t really see any room for the Khalifate in UtBS, mostly for story reasons.
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Finally, it’s such a long time after the mainline epoch, I rather doubt the Khalifate still exist as a faction by then.
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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by Mabuse » November 11th, 2014, 12:44 am

in any case they need more profile.

by now they are just a bunch of desert-honzos with strange stats, thown in because one developer wanted to provoke and show the people that muslims have a rich fantasy tradition (thats how i understand noy statement). thanks for the lesson. now i feel a ot smarter and well educated.

i just see no fantasy tbh.
give em some land-lizards they ride, or elephants, some magic, not just a bunch of desert noobs that can fight on hills equally good as dwarfes for no reason.

make it more interesting - like a journey to a strange place where no common wesnotian has been before.


in any case i dont join the discussion about changing the name because of rl-stituations.
never. that would also mean that wesnoth-developers bow down and change names accordingsly to the current rl-political-situation.

kalifa as a name is ok, but they are just "soem other human-only"-faction, and when you try to compare stats you jus get a headche.
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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by Wintermute » November 11th, 2014, 2:21 am

alpha1 wrote:
Wintermute wrote: In fact, Drakes were not around since the beginning.
Yeah, i know factions were added gradually and Drakes weren't there since the *very* very beginning. But 1.0 seemed like beginning enough for the sake of the argument. And I personally remember them since 1.2 :geek:
Sorry alpha1, I think I misread you a bit - I was reading and replying in a hurry. I thought you were trying to say that adding drakes was "no big deal", but I see you were saying that we shouldn't hold our breath for a campaign, given the example of adding drakes and still lacking one. That's a fair point. On the other hand, we may have one in a year - who knows.
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Re: Khalifate Era

Post by Quetzalcoatl » November 11th, 2014, 9:54 am

To put this in somewhat more western oriented context: Watican being raided by orcs, pope conquering hobbiton or pope's and sauron's armies battling together. That would be the flavor of fantasy we going to explore. I think its fully understandable that it makes good amount of people anxious.

So as we going cross that river either way, lets hope they don't call it Rubicon.
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