Strange units

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Yomar
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Strange units

Post by Yomar » December 25th, 2013, 12:28 am

I noticed that the paladin's arcane attack is Not magical, but his sword icon looks magic, I think he is the only unit in the game that has a Not magical arcane attack (at least in the 2 standardt eras).
An another thing that I found a bit strange is that dwarves only need 1 mp to cross forest hexes, like the elves.
Its a lot that this game is in developement, so I don't think that these things are oversights, so are they for game balancing or there also other "logical" reasons ? Idk, like dwarves only need one movement point to cross woods because "historycally" (in fantyasy worlds) they go often in the forest to cut trees. ( Hmm, but I thougt that they usually work in mines).

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Re: Strange units

Post by Velensk » December 25th, 2013, 2:01 am

If you want reasons we can supply them but then it becomes up to you to accept them if you will or you can continue choosing to be bothered by them.
Remember, WINR (Wesnoth is not Realistic).

But as to those two issues. The 'Magical' ability represents an attack which by it's inherent nature isn't something you can defend against (thus the chance of miss represents miscasting the spell) and thus although the sword is enchanted as you still have to hit someone with it and thus it does not warrant the special.

Dwarves are rugged explorers and their dwelling and abilities aren't limited to the underground. Their legs may not be long but they know how to use them well and they don't let nothing, not brush, nor trees, nor giant mushrooms, nor massive cliffs get in their way.
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SkyOne
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Re: Strange units

Post by SkyOne » December 25th, 2013, 3:37 am

Yomar wrote:I found a bit strange is that dwarves only need 1 mp to cross forest hexes, like the elves.
Its a lot that this game is in developement, so I don't think that these things are oversights, so are they for game balancing or there also other "logical" reasons ?
Hello Yomar, I just say a game reason from my point of view:
- the most of Dwarves' "movement" are 4. If their "movement_cost" are 2, they only can move 2 hexes in each turn. It is kind of too slow, and frustrated. The "movement_cost=1.5" (or 1.33) in the forest terrain might be more reasonable if it is existed. But unfortunately, there is not a decimal point in the "movement_cost"...
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Yomar
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Re: Strange units

Post by Yomar » December 25th, 2013, 3:26 pm

Of course the game can only be "realistic" as a fantasy game can be, and having only 4mp and spending 2 to cross a forest can be a bit frustrating, but HI often has to confront with that problem, but dwarves Not, true loyals have other faster units, but dwarves too, actually their fast units can cross bad terrains more easily than loyal ones.

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beetlenaut
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Re: Strange units

Post by beetlenaut » December 26th, 2013, 8:19 pm

There used to be a note about the dwarves' movement in the help system. Pretty much like Velensk said, it said that dwarves are strong enough and sturdy enough to just crash through the undergrowth in the forest without losing speed or getting injured. I can't find that information any more, but that was the original reason given by the developers.
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Yomar
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Re: Strange units

Post by Yomar » December 27th, 2013, 2:34 pm

beetlenaut wrote:There used to be a note about the dwarves' movement in the help system. Pretty much like Velensk said, it said that dwarves are strong enough and sturdy enough to just crash through the undergrowth in the forest without losing speed or getting injured. I can't find that information any more, but that was the original reason given by the developers.
Ok, its would be nice to read that.

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SkyOne
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Re: Strange units

Post by SkyOne » December 27th, 2013, 4:05 pm

Maybe, this one on "help.cfg" ? :
Forests represent any woodland with significant undergrowth, enough to hinder passage. Though they slow nearly everyone down, forests do offer better defense to most units than open ground. Cavalry, however, have so much trouble navigating them that any benefit gained by stealth is negated. Elves are an exception to this general rule for forests. Not only do they possess full movement in forests, but they also gain a considerable defensive bonus. Dwarves are another exception to this rule; though they are able to plow through the forests without much loss of speed, their utter unfamiliarity with the terrain causes them to receive no defensive bonus.

Most units have 50% defense in forests, but cavalry are limited to 30%. Elves, on the other hand, enjoy 60 to 70% defense, even their mounted units. Dwarves generally receive only 30% defense in forests.
This is another one from respectable Dave: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 21#p478821
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pauxlo
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Re: Strange units

Post by pauxlo » December 27th, 2013, 6:15 pm

Yomar wrote:I noticed that the paladin's arcane attack is Not magical, but his sword icon looks magic, I think he is the only unit in the game that has a Not magical arcane attack (at least in the 2 standardt eras).
No, there also is the Ghost and its upgrades Wraith and Spectre with a non-magical arcane melee attack each.

As said, the "magical" property less tells us how the damage is done, but more "how does the weapon/projectile/... reaches its target". And even with an enchanted sword the paladin still has to hit his opponent with the sword to deal damage, just like the ghost. When hit, then the arcane property comes into play and determines how much damage is done.
Yomar wrote:An another thing that I found a bit strange is that dwarves only need 1 mp to cross forest hexes, like the elves.
The usual "fluff" explanation is that they are that strong that they simply run through the underwood, breaking it all. For this reason they don't slow down, but also can't run silently in the forest or hide there, and have a bad defense (30%).
Yomar wrote:Its a lot that this game is in developement, so I don't think that these things are oversights, so are they for game balancing or there also other "logical" reasons ? Idk, like dwarves only need one movement point to cross woods because "historycally" (in fantyasy worlds) they go often in the forest to cut trees. ( Hmm, but I thougt that they usually work in mines).
Yes, all of it is for balancing reasons. Dwarves (the standard ones: fighter, thunderer, guardsman) are already slower than most other races (only foot-goblins, troll whelps, woses, heavy infantrymen (+ level-ups) and walking corpses have the same 4 MPs), and can't afford any slowdown by forests.

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Kymille
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Re: Strange units

Post by Kymille » December 27th, 2013, 8:27 pm

I'd just like to say that if you think of sources like "The Hobbit" or "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs", dwarves are very good at moving through forests, like many "fairy tale" creatures. It doesn't seem very compelling to me to think that they are "utterly unfamiliar" with the terrain. Furthermore, since they have good defenses in forested hills, the proposed description is incorrect. Their defensive problem in wesnoth is with flat terrain, including roads, not forests as such.

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Re: Strange units

Post by Yomar » January 2nd, 2014, 11:59 pm

Ok, thx very much for the infos, I only tough that it was a bit unfair that dwarves get movement and defense advantages in most terrains beside hills and mountains, like frozen, sand, mushroom, water, reef etc., not counting villages, while the more expensive heavy infantry that on lv 2 and 3 is even worser than dwarves (no resistance increasement, less HP, no distance attack at lv.3) of the same level does not has a safe place to hide and plus its difficult to retreat even more than a dwarf that has better mobility on "bad" terrains, but if its all for balancing, well then its ok for me, if diminishing forest or mountain crossing (Yes they are dwarves, but a mountain is a mountain), would unbalance the game, then ok I don't want an unbalanced game, I brought up the question just in case..., after all the game is still in developement, I think that perfect balancing is somewhat that is very difficult to obtain, if not impossible, its a lot that I play, but I can't now how much a change influences the game, if no one tries a change no one will ever know how that change would have influenced the game, I don't think that every small change to the game should be judged as something that would unbalance the game even without testing it.
Last edited by Yomar on January 3rd, 2014, 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strange units

Post by monochromatic » January 3rd, 2014, 12:23 am

Yomar wrote:...after all the game is still in developement, I think that perfect balancing is somewhat that is very difficult to obtain, if not impossible, its a lot that I play, but I can't now how much a change influences the game, if no one tries a change no one will ever know how that change would have influenced the game, I don't think that every small change to the game should be judged as something that would unbalance the game even without testing it.
[acronym=read: sarcastic]Splendid[/acronym]! Because Wesnoth is FOSS and the game's core files are open for your own changes, you can test it yourself! And what's this, "no one tries a change"? Just conduct a quick search of the forums, and see that plenty of issues in the past have been brought up, tested, and then implemented/not implemented based on the results.

What you fail to realize, is that Wesnoth has been in development for a very long time (earlier than 27 October 2011, that's for sure). Balance has been extensively discussed and tested over this period of time, with adequate replays, arguments etc. Simply because you walk in with a "logic" argument, does not mean that the particular issue is question needs to be changed. Most likely, it's been that way for a reason (you didn't think you were the first one to think said issue needs to be changed?). That being said, you are correct: "perfect balancing is [something] that is very difficult to obtain", and Wesnoth is by no means balanced perfectly. But as it stands, in my opinion the Default era is pretty damn close.

If you indeed are passionate about a particular idea or issue, Create and Modify the game files as needed and go test it! The Wesnoth multiplayer community is very active: I'm sure you'll find no issues in finding play-testers. Just do be sure to bring back replays.

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Re: Strange units

Post by Crow_T » January 3rd, 2014, 3:12 am

If you want to try modifying units to what you consider fair or better or more realistic its really easy to do http://wiki.wesnoth.org/BuildingUnits

Yomar
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Re: Strange units

Post by Yomar » January 3rd, 2014, 7:54 pm

Ok monochromatic, as I said if its balanced its ok for me no need to repeat it over and over, I know that its a lot that the game is tested out, I know after all I follow this game from its origins, and yes probably I will do some tests by myself as I already did in the past, but even if its a lot that the game its in development I don't think that every small particular was extensively tested out, I also did researches on this forum about Knagla Dwarves and forest movement points and defense and I did not found anything for this I brought out this question, IDK, maybe I wrote wrong key words in the search bar, I also checked change lists and Wesnoth unit databases and I saw that the Dwarf Fighter forest defense and movement cost are the same in Wesnoth 1.0 and Wesnoth 1.10.

I tried only to explain that if you don't try something, you will never know, maybe the game after that change will be even more balanced.
Plus, I mentioned advanced levels of Heavy Infantry and Dwarf Fighter, that you can recruit in Age Of Heroes, maybe that era is a bit less tested out than the default one, at least that is my sensation.

Humans for a long time tough that earth was flat and that was the sun to rotate around earth, but only because a theory works and sounds logic that does not mean that it is right.

Again, I don't want change anyone's mind, I want just discuss, and make considerations about a game that I like a lot, is not that one of the purpose of a forum ?

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Re: Strange units

Post by monochromatic » January 3rd, 2014, 11:12 pm

Yomar wrote:...I also checked change lists and Wesnoth unit databases and I saw that the Dwarf Fighter forest defense and movement cost are the same in Wesnoth 1.0 and Wesnoth 1.10.
Check out this link, written by the ever-present shadowm. He documents the origins of Wesnoth before what he calls "modern" versions of the game. While this does not directly relate to this discussion, it's just an example of game development that occurred even before the 1.0 landmark that the unit lists look back to.
Yomar wrote:I tried only to explain that if you don't try something, you will never know, maybe the game after that change will be even more balanced.
Plus, I mentioned advanced levels of Heavy Infantry and Dwarf Fighter, that you can recruit in Age Of Heroes, maybe that era is a bit less tested out than the default one, at least that is my sensation.
I did not intend by any means to discourage balancing changes/ideas. The game isn't perfect, and that's one of the beauties of this project. However, that does not mean you can walk up to the project with a "logic" argument and expect the game to change. As I wrote in my previous post, test it out yourself! No-one's going to do it for you (unless you can successfully convince them to, of course), so if you would like to see this change, you should the be agent of your proposed idea, not someone else. Again, all the required tools and knowledge are available: it only requires a little but of dedication to create real testing environments to truly understand the said issue.

Also, note Age of Heroes is not balanced. It's included in Wesnoth purely for the fun factor.
Yomar wrote:Humans for a long time tough that earth was flat and that was the sun to rotate around earth, but only because a theory works and sounds logic that does not mean that it is right.
For correctness' sake, the circumference of the earth was already approximated by Eratosthenes around 200 BC and paradigm of the earth's spherical properties can be traced to the 6th century BC. Considering the birth of modern astronomy around the 8th century BC, I'd hardly say the idea of a flat earth was pre-dominant for a long time.

The difference between you and these pioneer astronomers, was that they conducted their own hypothesis/research/test cycle and proved the world wrong with well-documented test results and you currently have none other than your own intuition.

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Re: Strange units

Post by beetlenaut » January 4th, 2014, 6:44 am

Yomar wrote:I saw that the Dwarf Fighter forest defense and movement cost are the same in Wesnoth 1.0 and Wesnoth 1.10. I tried only to explain that if you don't try something, you will never know, maybe the game after that change will be even more balanced.
You seem to be suggesting that it's some kind of failure on our part not to have changed the movement points of the dwarves to see if it made the game more balanced. But you could make exactly the same argument about every other statistic! The developers don't balance the game by randomly changing each of a thousand numbers and trying it out to see if it makes things better or worse. They analyze hundreds of games between top players. If they see that, for example, games are being tipped slightly in favor of the undead because bats' resistances are too high, they bump them down to 40% in villages and see if that fixes the problem. After a few hundred more games, they decide that they went too far, and go with 50% instead. (True story.) You can't expect them to change anything based only on the fact that they've never changed it before, and you think it might be better.
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