Favorite / least favorite mainline race

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gooby
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Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by gooby »

I suppose I'll draw heat for this but I'm not a huge fan of drakes. They are great against certain enemies of course but it's not hard to find at least one unit on the opposing side with pierce, arcane and/or cold. 14 gold Spearmen are swell against these expensive units. Dark Adepts too. Skeleton Archers, in that they present burners with a difficult dilemma and fare even better against other Drake units. Even Goblins can be surprisingly nasty to Drakes. Elvish Archers should also be mentioned, in addition to Dwarvish units with piercing weapons. And so it goes...

And now that I mention Dwarves, I'd have to say they're my favorite overall. The contrast between the two is most obvious in scenario Eastern Flank in Northern Rebirth. Here Dwarvish units (albeit mostly Lvl 3 by this time) stand their ground on flat terrain and dominate the mountains. My drakes with their 40% defense in the mountains and weakness for piercing held off the Orcs somewhat feebly until I could recall / recruit Dwarves to shove them back. And they really are incredible on hills and mountains. How many other mainline units have (relatively) great mobility AND high HP AND high resistances AND high defense in this sort of terrain? Or other terrain for that matter?

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Telchin
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by Telchin »

Favorite: Undead - simply because I like playing the most monstrous race in the game (see my UMC), so in Wesnoth it's between Undead and Drakes and I feel that the Undead have more variation among their units (note that Drakes have to have Saurians in default era just to have enough units to constitute a whole faction)That said you don't get to play either of these factions in the mainline campaigns much.
Least favorite: If we talk of default factions rather than races then Knalgans. I find them rather bland: no healing except the healthy trait (note that Undead have at least life drain and Northerners have regenerating Trolls), no leadership (neither do Undead though), no magic (and no marksman until level 3), only three damage types. Now I understand that they have their perks too (gooby mentions some above), I just don't like playing them. (Though interestingly I enjoyed playing THoT more than DiD as you do have healers in THoT, no healers in SoF though).
If we talk about actual races I would say Elves. Not for any gameplay reasons, I'm just fed up with (almost?) every fantasy game having the same Tolkienian races that were used hundred times before and weren't exactly new when Tolkien used them either. The same could be said about dwarves and orcs, but elves annoy me more for several reasons: 1)I have pollen allergy and live in an industrial city, so I find the elvish lifestyle abominable 2)Wesnoth elves are pale skinned blondes. Orcs have dark skins and hair. The two don't like each other. Which real world ideology does this remind me of? :augh: (disclaimer: I don't accuse the developers of supporting any totalitarian ideology. I'm just oversensitive here.)

gooby
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by gooby »

Telchin wrote:If we talk about actual races I would say Elves. Not for any gameplay reasons, I'm just fed up with (almost?) every fantasy game having the same Tolkienian races that were used hundred times before and weren't exactly new when Tolkien used them either. The same could be said about dwarves and orcs, but elves annoy me more for several reasons: 1)I have pollen allergy and live in an industrial city, so I find the elvish lifestyle abominable 2)Wesnoth elves are pale skinned blondes. Orcs have dark skins and hair. The two don't like each other. Which real world ideology does this remind me of? :augh: (disclaimer: I don't accuse the developers of supporting any totalitarian ideology. I'm just oversensitive here.)
If you're talking about Nazism, well ... in Tolkien's "Legendarium", the Dwarves, rather than the Orcs, are actually meant to correspond to the Jews. That's why their language, Khuzdul, is Semitic. Or maybe you were talking about white supremacist beliefs in general? Hard to tell here.

Why do the Orcs and the Elves hate each other so much anyway in that world? If you saw the movie, it gets the story right more or less. The evil deity Melkor had his minions frighten the Elves into coming north to his domain. They were then tortured until they became something else altogether. But, from what I remember, their spirits remained Elven. That is why killing an Orc is really doing it a favor: the Elven spirit inside is finally set free. :)

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Dixie
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by Dixie »

huh... Weren't Tolkien's Dwarves more modeled after the scots? :hmm:
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Telchin
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by Telchin »

@gooby: I've both read Tolkien's books and seen the movies (and I know that Tolkien wasn't a Nazi), but Wesnoth is its own franchise so its elves and orcs don't have to follow the same rules as those from the Middle-earth (for example Tolkien's elves can live for millenia, while those from Wesnoth only for 2-3 centuries). I also understand that the are good reasons for them to fight each other (the orcs usually start) and I wouldn't mind either race's appearance if the other one looked differently (it's the combination of good blonde people and bad dark-skinned people that I find unfortunate). That said I reiterate that I don't accuse the developers (or Tolkien) of any bad intention and I apologize for derailing your thread about favorite mainline races into a political discussion. :oops:
EDIT: @Dixie: IIRC they were more scottish in the movies than in the books, but it's long time since I've read the books/seen the movies and I've read the books only in Czech translation, so it might differ. The Wesnothian dwarves are more scottish. AFAIK, the idea of dwarves as Scotts comes from the fact that both are proud warior nations that live in mountainous terrain. Meanwhile the reason to make the dwarves Semitic was probably to set them apart from the elves (whose languages were based on welsh and finnish). I may be wrong though.

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revansurik
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by revansurik »

Favourite race: Humans. I'm surprised that no one has even mentioned them already, sine they're an extremely varied race with lots of powerful units: there are various mighty ranged units - lvl 4 great mages, mages of light with illuminate ability, master bowmen, huntsmen who are better than lvl 2 elvish archers -, strong, sturdy units for melee combat - royal guards, halberdiers, iron maulers, highwaymen, grand knights to finish off or lethally injure stronger enemy units -; there are quick, skirmisher units - rogues, duellists -, poisoning units - assassins -, healing units, units with all kinds of attack and all alignments, making them dangerous at both day and night... Now, if we're talking about a faction, then the loyalists, who have all the aforementioned units but for the chaotic ones :-)

Least favourite race: To play with, the drakes. They're great as cannonfodder or to deplete enemy hp, but I find them terrible to keep alive long enough to even advance to the next lvl, because they don't do well on ANY terrain. Even if fighting on daytime against orcs, they lose hp way too quickly. Now, if by 'least favourite race' you mean the one I hate the most, then it's the saurians. I simply hate how they can be such a lethal enemy with such frail bodies and weak attacks, and also how they always kill my precious healers; see, I loved the scenario Costly Revenge in LoW because I get to completely crush them :twisted:

A quick comment on Telchin's idea about the elves/orcs enmity... Well, I too felt a bit uncomfortable sometimes at how the orcs are depicted, both physically and culturally; I mean, they're called evil because they keep attacking everyone, but aren't humans just like that as well? And haven't the elves been the ones who unleashed Irdya's worst enemies by opening that portal to another world (I'm talking about UtBS here, not IftU/AtS)? Ah, and let's not even mention that it are humans (and, if we think of Mebrin from TSG, elvews), not orcs, who practice necromancy; and that, if orcs, and also trolls, are aggressive, then the mostly 'good' elves and dwarves are highly distrustful of any race other than their own, a behaviour that is arguably horrible.
Anyway, we always have SotBE to avenge the orcs :-P
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Drakefriend
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by Drakefriend »

Well, I think my favorite is not that hard to guess. I add that their fluff is very interesting - best of all,
possibly non-canon, possibly secret:
. Saurians, Naga, Bats, Gryphons and Monsters are also among my favorites.
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gooby
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by gooby »

Dixie wrote:huh... Weren't Tolkien's Dwarves more modeled after the scots? :hmm:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(Mid ... The_Hobbit

Overall, Tolkien's Dwarves seem like Askenazi Jews. Mixture of Germanic and Semitic qualities e.g. they use names like "Thorin" with everyone else. A lot of these names come directly out of the Elder Edda. (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm ... from stanza 10.)

I don't exactly where the Scottish thing came from but it seems to be very prevalent anymore.
Telchin wrote:@gooby: I've both read Tolkien's books and seen the movies (and I know that Tolkien wasn't a Nazi), but Wesnoth is its own franchise so its elves and orcs don't have to follow the same rules as those from the Middle-earth (for example Tolkien's elves can live for millenia, while those from Wesnoth only for 2-3 centuries). I also understand that the are good reasons for them to fight each other (the orcs usually start) and I wouldn't mind either race's appearance if the other one looked differently (it's the combination of good blonde people and bad dark-skinned people that I find unfortunate). That said I reiterate that I don't accuse the developers (or Tolkien) of any bad intention and I apologize for derailing your thread about favorite mainline races into a political discussion. :oops:
No it's cool, I'm not worried.
revansurik wrote:Favourite race: Humans. I'm surprised that no one has even mentioned them already, sine they're an extremely varied race with lots of powerful units: there are various mighty ranged units - lvl 4 great mages, mages of light with illuminate ability, master bowmen, huntsmen who are better than lvl 2 elvish archers -
I have to agree with that ... on the whole I like the Poacher line more than any other mainline archer. They level up fast and are uniquely brutal in swampy terrain.

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Dixie
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by Dixie »

gooby wrote:
Dixie wrote:huh... Weren't Tolkien's Dwarves more modeled after the scots? :hmm:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(Mid ... The_Hobbit

Overall, Tolkien's Dwarves seem like Askenazi Jews. Mixture of Germanic and Semitic qualities e.g. they use names like "Thorin" with everyone else. A lot of these names come directly out of the Elder Edda. (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm ... from stanza 10.)

I don't exactly where the Scottish thing came from but it seems to be very prevalent anymore.
Well, they're rough, sturdy, grumpy hills people who like a good drink, are good engineers and lost their kingdom... I don't really see the jews in them myself, but meh. Let's let this vain debate blow over, I guess, it's off topic anyway.
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Hulavuta
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by Hulavuta »

Saurians are the best and my favorite, of course.
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UK1
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by UK1 »

I really loved undead for the longest time, but they've just been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed and nerfed into oblivion for some reason that totally escapes my understanding (undead were thought to be the most difficult faction to win with when I started playing!) to the point that... they're almost unplayable. How more nerfed can the undead get? They don't have traits (oh, except the bat, who now has a negative trait automatically so it's 1/2 as likely to get quick which is GAME breaking for undead), they have expensive units that are both fragile and, besides the DA, have attacks that are really nothing to get wet over. The skeleton is halfway decent, but even that is nowhere near as good as the spearman which costs less gold, might get 8-3, and has a range attack. They also have resistances that are really easy for the enemy to take advantage of. The resistance to pierce and blade are pretty nice, but ultimately it's usually going to be your enemy who chooses what units hit yours. The only matchup now where I'd bet on undead everything else equal would be loyalists because the loyalist answers to undead, Mage and HI, have severe drawbacks. The HI is clunky and can't retreat at night and is really prone to being DA fodder while the Mage is rather weak in the HP department and their attack is only passing decent during non-day turns.

Going up against Knalgans is a death sentence for Undead now, going up against Drakes, also, is a death sentence because they are so frustratingly mobile that you just can't catch them and if you try to chase them out of villages they just pull back until second night at which point if you take their villages they just slaughter you at dawn. The only Undead answers to the drakes are Ghouls and maybe Skeleton Archers. DA's do nice damage to them with their Cold attack, but Drakes just burn them to a crisp with retal and it takes one fighter/clasher to decommission a DA. Ghouls are nice for Drakes. They're resistant to Drake attacks, but their damage STINKS and their only saving grace is poison which is LEAST effective against Drakes because of how mobile they are. Plus, a Drake Burner followed by an attack by any other Drake unit can still often make pretty short work of a Ghoul as long as it's not like... on a castle or village. Skeleton archers I'm not sold on. They have pierce, yes, but they're EXTREMELY fragile and if you attack a Burner with one the chance of it killing you is very high. And at best you'll only punish him slightly.

Orcs have it easy because they're the only faction who can recruit archers with impunity, not worrying whether or not the opponent is undead, because their archers have a very competent fire attack. They have wolves which are just as fast as bats and do way more damage and have way better defense.

Elves, again, their scouts just kill undead bats. Period. Better defense, WAY better speed. They've got the elvish fighter, a reliable unit, for cheap. They have woses and mages and, of course, the bane of undead: Shamans. They just have so many answers to undead it's not even funny. And when confronted by a Wose an undead player is very hard pressed to take it down without losing a whole bunch of units. Because your DA's, the only unit of yours that can scathe a wose, are defenseless. And you have to throw 'em all out there to take him down. So after you do that, he just sends in his fighters and cleans you right up.

As it stands, I'd say my favorite faction would have to be loyalists. They have cavalrymen and spearmen which are essentially the best unit per gold you'll find in the game. The cavalryman has a good attack, is fast, and is hard to kill. The Spearman is an average unit for below average cost. If you ever buy a horseman, you're basically insane. That money should go towards a cavalryman and then spend the rest on a decent haircut.
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revansurik
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by revansurik »

Going up against Knalgans is a death sentence for Undead now, going up against Drakes, also, is a death sentence because they are so frustratingly mobile that you just can't catch them and if you try to chase them out of villages they just pull back until second night at which point if you take their villages they just slaughter you at dawn. The only Undead answers to the drakes are Ghouls and maybe Skeleton Archers. DA's do nice damage to them with their Cold attack, but Drakes just burn them to a crisp with retal and it takes one fighter/clasher to decommission a DA. Ghouls are nice for Drakes. They're resistant to Drake attacks, but their damage STINKS and their only saving grace is poison which is LEAST effective against Drakes because of how mobile they are. Plus, a Drake Burner followed by an attack by any other Drake unit can still often make pretty short work of a Ghoul as long as it's not like... on a castle or village. Skeleton archers I'm not sold on. They have pierce, yes, but they're EXTREMELY fragile and if you attack a Burner with one the chance of it killing you is very high. And at best you'll only punish him slightly.

Elves, again, their scouts just kill undead bats. Period. Better defense, WAY better speed. They've got the elvish fighter, a reliable unit, for cheap. They have woses and mages and, of course, the bane of undead: Shamans. They just have so many answers to undead it's not even funny. And when confronted by a Wose an undead player is very hard pressed to take it down without losing a whole bunch of units. Because your DA's, the only unit of yours that can scathe a wose, are defenseless. And you have to throw 'em all out there to take him down. So after you do that, he just sends in his fighters and cleans you right up.
Um, you're aware that you can recruit ghosts, right? :whistle:
I mean, ghosts are kind of vulnerable to drakes' ranged attack, but their cold-type wailing attack can harass the drakes even in daytime; and their arcane, draining melee attack allows them to inflict damage for many turns, especially if you consider that drakes are defenceless on any ground. Damn, even dwarves have a hard time with ghosts, whose attack types are amongst the only ones thatdwarves have little resistance against. And I'm talking about lvl 1 ghosts; if we talk about the wonderful wraiths and spectres... Seriously, only burners, fire drakes and inferno drakes can effectively threaten them
As for the elves... Indeed, shamans, archers and, omg, sorceresses, enchantress and :augh: sylphs are deadly to ghosts, but woses? Come on, is there any unit other than saurians who should actually fear those slow-ass, defenceless trees? Just use a handful of ghosts, or recall 3-4 wraiths/spectres, and any wose army is done (maybe a few save/loads would be necessary, I admit :-P )
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by gooby »

Dixie wrote:Well, they're rough, sturdy, grumpy hills people who like a good drink, are good engineers and lost their kingdom...
Most of those are stereotypical traits of a ... certain ethnic group. (Those Israelis build really cool robots.)
Hulavuta wrote:Saurians are the best and my favorite, of course.
In sand, caves and especially in swamps, yes. They're like the Vietcong though. Nearly incapable of open confrontation. They will get squashed in a hurry if they are not on favored terrain. (And sometimes even then.)
revansurik wrote:Just use a handful of ghosts, or recall 3-4 wraiths/spectres, and any wose army is done (maybe a few save/loads would be necessary, I admit :-P )
If you find beating Woses with Ghosts difficult, stop advancing them to Shadows. In the situation you described, those Woses would just get their clocks cleaned.

Basically I like using Woses as tanks against potent enemies with piercing and/or impact attacks. Otherwise they're kind of iffy (including against blades), or even suicidal.

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Hulavuta
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by Hulavuta »

gooby wrote:
Hulavuta wrote:Saurians are the best and my favorite, of course.
In sand, caves and especially in swamps, yes. They're like the Vietcong though. Nearly incapable of open confrontation. They will get squashed in a hurry if they are not on favored terrain. (And sometimes even then.
Hmm, it is a funny coincidence that my favorite is the "Vietcong Race" and I actually am Vietnamese. :lol2:
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gooby
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Re: Favorite / least favorite mainline race

Post by gooby »

Hulavuta wrote:Hmm, it is a funny coincidence that my favorite is the "Vietcong Race" and I actually am Vietnamese. :lol2:
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