Facts of Funny and Ridiculous settings series.

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AxalaraFlame
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Facts of Funny and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by AxalaraFlame » October 15th, 2012, 12:38 am

We all know there are some units in wesnoth have some very "interesting" resistances. And sometimes they have some abilities that can hardly be associated with any forms of common sense. Here I want list out a few and hope we can get some explanations for them.

1. Horserider 20% resistances against cold
(1) They wear plate armor. So what? Their resistances against cold should be weakened, just like heavy infantry man, instead of strengthened.
(2) Do they wear cold resistant clothes? The unit description did not mention it.
(3) The horse provide them warmth? WTF. Then why don't horseman and elvish horses resist cold?

2. Drakes have -30% resistances against arcane
Why dont it have 20% resistances? We should know that before 1.4 drakes do have 20%, but why is it changed?
Humans use spears against them, undead use cold wave against them, other races use various blades and arrows against them. So what is the purpose of cutting down this resitance?

3. Fencer have 10% resistances against cold
The same thing as horse. How could it make sense simply by "they cloth better" than footies and thieves?

4. Trolls only have 20% resistances against blade/pierce attacks
If you could damage a rock badly simplybetter by using spear or blade, I will ROTFLOL. Besides, you can take a stick as well, and I believe it won't work.

5. Dwarves HATE forests; while in the forests, they only cost one movement point!~

6. Orc soverign deals less damage and has less hp than a Orcish Warlord.
Good, that is called an "overlord" in the race of ORCS!~ :augh: He cannot even prove he is the strongest!
Last edited by AxalaraFlame on October 16th, 2012, 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by Sapient » October 15th, 2012, 2:06 am

Some of these were discussed in the Writer's Forum a while back:
Fluff explanations for weaknesses/resistances
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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by TheScribe » October 15th, 2012, 2:51 am

Since I didn't see the troll in the topic Sapient posted:

Remember trolls aren't actually rock, they just look like it and have similar characteristics. (intelligence for one)

Not that what you said isn't something to think about, just thought I'd mention it.
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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by Chris NS » October 15th, 2012, 8:45 am

I'm not in charge of the project, but I think I can guess what the answers to these questions are:

1. Balance.
2. Balance.
3. Balance.
4. Balance.
5. Balance.
6. Balance.

This is especially relevant in multiplayer games. What the devs want to avoid at all costs is players always choosing the same faction because it gives them an advantage over the other players.

In any case, realism in fantasy games is subjective. Since most of the things is Wesnoth never existed in real life, what's "realistic" is entirely down to speculation.

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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by Telchin » October 15th, 2012, 11:04 am

Please AxalaraFlame don't take this as condescending, I have personally started two threads on similiar topis and there probably more such things as Wesnoth Is Not Realistic (WINR) and gameplay always beats "realism".
2. Drakes have -30% resistances against arcane
Why dont it have 20% resistances? We should know that before 1.4 drakes do have 20%, but why is it changed?
I guess this has more to do with explanation what "arcane" is rather than balance. Arcane was originally "holy" adn was strong against undead, but weak against everything else. This limited its usefullness and it was reconcepted as basically "anti-magic". Humans are mundane creatures (as evidenced by their existance in real life, where magic doesn't exist) and thus are resistant, while skeletons are corpses animated by magic and therefore vulnerable. Drakes are not undead, but are still very unnatural creatures (being six-limbed flying fire-beathing reptiles) and thus vulnerable to arcane.
Horserider 20% resistances against cold
I think that the thread linked by sapient has a nioce explanation that being scouts, cavaliers are more used to bad weather than Heavy infantry or Horsemen. It doesn't explain why Elvish scout doesn't have such resisistance too, so I guess it's some sort of balance thing (but I don't know against what).
Dwarves HATE forests; while in the forests, they only cost one movement point!~
Note that dwarves have usually low number of movement points anyway and they don't get better defense in forest. As for flavor explanation, I guess that being short they can avoid branches more easily than humans (doesn't explain why goblins get slowed despite being shorter than dwarves).
Orc soverign deals less damage and has less hp than a Orcish Warlord
Well, he is better archer and is faster though. Also, level1 Orcish ruler has better melee than level1 grunt (7-3 vs 9-2), so you can say that he proves his strenght on level1 and then focuses more on leadership qualities than on muscles. This seems to be a theme with all leadership units, that they are weaker than pure fighters of their level to balance their ability (most blatantly expressed with Elvish capatain and Elvish hero).

Now things that bother me:
1. Horsman and Cavalryman resistances to blade and impact. I suppose they represent their armor (as evidenced by the more armored cavalryman having higher resistance), but why their armor gives higher resistance to impact than to blade, when the opposite is true for HIs? (Impact should be better against armor than blade, as impacts can dent it). And if this is somehow related to their horses (I don't know much about horse physiology) than why don't Elvish scouts have similiar ressistances (they already share vulnerability to pierce)
2. Skeleton's vulnerability to fire. I understand that this is more for balance as skeletons are already highly resistant to half of the damage types, but do bones even burn? (I have no medical expertise) I guess that maybe the magic powering them might be said to be cold-based, but then why don't WCs and Ghouls have same vulnerability?
3. Why aren't Gryphons and Mermen vulnerable to arcane? They are different classes of animal smashed together (bird-mammal and fish-mammal, respectively) and thus seem to rather magical than mundane.
4. Wolves use same movetype as Wolfriders. Said movetype makes sense for orcs and goblins, but I would expect wild wolves to have arcane resistance (they are mundane real-life animals) and movement cost 1 on forests (wolves live in forests, don't they?)
5. Orcs crosbows are said to be either stolen from humans or inferior knock-offs. At the same time they use them for their primary archers. Meanwhile human archers use (long)bows and crossbows are relegated to emergency weapons of otherwise melee-prefering units (Dragoon, Duelist, Lieutnant). Apparently, orcs can use stolen crossbows more effectively than the humans they stole them from.

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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by TheScribe » October 15th, 2012, 11:52 am

I agree with Chris NS.

Though there are explanations for at least some of them.

2. Drakes have -30% resistances against arcane
Why dont it have 20% resistances? We should know that before 1.4 drakes do have 20%, but why is it changed?

I guess this has more to do with explanation what "arcane" is rather than balance. Arcane was originally "holy" adn was strong against undead, but weak against everything else. This limited its usefullness and it was reconcepted as basically "anti-magic". Humans are mundane creatures (as evidenced by their existance in real life, where magic doesn't exist) and thus are resistant, while skeletons are corpses animated by magic and therefore vulnerable. Drakes are not undead, but are still very unnatural creatures (being six-limbed flying fire-beathing reptiles) and thus vulnerable to arcane.
The internal fire that Drakes have inside of them is magical. Hence, the weakness to arcane.

Anything else I had too add has already been said, so I won't waste time repeating it. :wink:
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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by Ivir_Baggins » October 15th, 2012, 4:58 pm

Remember that unit descriptions are in theory from the perspective of a Wesnothian scholar, so they may not be entirely accurate.

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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by Dunno » October 15th, 2012, 6:31 pm

Chris NS wrote:1. Balance.
2. Balance.
3. Balance.
4. Balance.
5. Balance.
6. Balance.
/thread
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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by Sapient » October 16th, 2012, 2:16 am

Telchin wrote: 2. Skeleton's vulnerability to fire. I understand that this is more for balance as skeletons are already highly resistant to half of the damage types, but do bones even burn? (I have no medical expertise) I guess that maybe the magic powering them might be said to be cold-based, but then why don't WCs and Ghouls have same vulnerability?
The skeletal vulnerability to fire actually makes sense to me. Remember that a lot of fire attacks consist of explosive blasts. Case in point: Delfador's lightning is fire based. And these explosive blasts would be likely to blow the skeletal bones apart from each other, overcoming their magical bonds, and thus greatly damaging the skeleton.

While it's true that not all fire attacks consist of explosive blasts, the same story applies with mounted units and the pierce vulnerability. The mounted units have a pierce vulnerability because of spears, but that vulnerability applies to all pierce weapons (regardless of whether or not it makes sense for arrows, for example).

As for ghouls, the rotting blubber absorbs some of the damage I guess ;)
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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by Dixie » October 16th, 2012, 2:21 am

Also: yes, bones burn.
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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by AxalaraFlame » October 16th, 2012, 1:49 pm

1. Balance.
2. Balance.
3. Balance.
4. Balance.
5. Balance.
6. Balance.
This is not a satisfying answer :hmm: It is more of a resort to sophistry
Skeleton's vulnerability to fire
Phsycially it makes no sense, but they fear light; while fire creates light. I don't hvae much doubt about it.
The internal fire that Drakes have inside of them is magical. Hence, the weakness to arcane.
Makes lot of sense. Problem 2 solved :)
Please AxalaraFlame don't take this as condescending, I have personally started two threads on similiar topis and there probably more such things as Wesnoth Is Not Realistic (WINR) and gameplay always beats "realism".
I disagress with both points. First, I am not a newbie player, nor do I condecendingly give these ideas. I understand the need of balance and wesnoth is not realistic; second, amongest tens of thousands of threads, who knows you have made two simliar threads? And why should I post before I checked all these threads until I found yours? That statement only makes yourself look condescending.

Regardless, I have no intension for argument, just point out I am friendly. I insist that we can reach the balance between realism and gameplay, even if it looks rather realistic, it could be realized.
I think that the thread linked by sapient has a nioce explanation that being scouts, cavaliers are more used to bad weather than Heavy infantry or Horsemen. It doesn't explain why Elvish scout doesn't have such resisistance too, so I guess it's some sort of balance thing (but I don't know against what).
It could be a good point, but I strongly suggest to add it into the units description. If so, problem 1 solved.
Note that dwarves have usually low number of movement points anyway and they don't get better defense in forest. As for flavor explanation, I guess that being short they can avoid branches more easily than humans (doesn't explain why goblins get slowed despite being shorter than dwarves).
Generally not very reasonable. While they avoid branches, they suffer in shrubs and bushes. I suggest to strengthen their mobility on fungus, but weaken the forest mobility.
Last edited by AxalaraFlame on October 16th, 2012, 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by Colouredbox » October 16th, 2012, 1:59 pm

AxalaraFlame wrote:
Note that dwarves have usually low number of movement points anyway and they don't get better defense in forest. As for flavor explanation, I guess that being short they can avoid branches more easily than humans (doesn't explain why goblins get slowed despite being shorter than dwarves).
Generally not very reasonable. While they avoid branches, they suffer in shrubs and bushes. I suggest to strengthen their mobility on fungus, but weaken the forest mobility.
How can you strengthen their mobility on fungus when their movement penalty is only 1 already. Fungus teleporting? :lol2:

Also some forests don't have much shrubs and bushes.



I don't know why you try to make this game realistic, when it would only hurt it by creating balance problems and taking away flavour from units.
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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by Telchin » October 16th, 2012, 2:02 pm

I disagress with both points. First, I am not a newbie player, nor do I condecendingly give these ideas. I understand the need of balance and wesnoth is not realistic; second, amongest tens of thousands of threads, who knows you have made two simliar threads? And why should I post before I checked all these threads until I found yours? That statement only makes yourself look condescending.
I didn't want to say you sound condescending. I was trying to say that I didn't intend to sound condescending towards you and I mentioned those two old threads to encourage you by showing that you're not the only one who sometimes wonders about gameplay and story segregation in BfW. Apparently I didn't make myself clear, so I apologize.

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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by AxalaraFlame » October 16th, 2012, 2:03 pm

How can you strengthen their mobility on fungus when their movement penalty is only 1 already. Fungus teleporting? :lol2:

Also some forests don't have much shrubs and bushes.

I don't know why you try to make this game realistic, when it would only hurt it by creating balance problems and taking away flavour from units

Sorry :doh: my bad. Strengthen their dodge rate to 50%, since they live in the cave and feed by mushroom farms, it makes lot of sense.

I am not trying to focus on realism. what I mean is, we can make it rather more realistic than the current version, while the balance could remain stable

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Re: Facts of Foolish and Ridiculous settings series.

Post by AxalaraFlame » October 16th, 2012, 2:04 pm

I didn't want to say you sound condescending. I was trying to say that I didn't intend to sound condescending towards you and I mentioned those two old threads to encourage you by showing that you're not the only one who sometimes wonders about gameplay and story segregation in BfW. Apparently I didn't make myself clear, so I apologize
Thank you sir. I appreciated that. :) Moving on?

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