Freaken Zombies everywhere

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BasiC
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Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by BasiC » March 20th, 2012, 5:13 pm

(this is a discussion about balance for 1v1 ladder games only)
I dont get the walking corpse balance...
On the one side it is cheap and can possibly spawn another zombie/s but on the other side a walking corpse is not the ideal unit to put xp into...You have to last hit with the WC to get more of it but you dont really wanna give it the XP...
Imagine 2-3 zombies that you spawn with your WC...
These kills could have secured a level 2 for one of your units..
I really dont get this and it seems like the undead balance is fighting itself..
What is the precise role of WC in ranked games?
Surely id want a level 2 unit than 2 more zombies...
It seems unelegant(faction balance wise) to force the player to make this choice.
I

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Lord-Knightmare
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Re: Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by Lord-Knightmare » March 20th, 2012, 5:22 pm

Of the all the replays I have seen, WCs are rarely used. They are only used when there is a shortage of income. Ghosts and Skeleton Archers, on the other hand, are overused.

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alexanderthegre
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Re: Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by alexanderthegre » March 20th, 2012, 5:25 pm

Well, I know I'm not the best player in the world, but I personally like to use WCs on defense.
They are dirt cheap, and are very good at slowing down units, even if they have no ZoC.
I also use them when fighting things weak to impact (ie undead and kaliphate.)

In any case, they are a specialist unit: don't start-recruit them. They remind me of the HI.

Just my opinion, though.

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Dunno
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Re: Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by Dunno » March 20th, 2012, 5:40 pm

BasiC wrote: Surely id want a level 2 unit than 2 more zombies...
It seems unelegant(faction balance wise) to force the player to make this choice.
I
First of all, 3 more zombies, not 2, and I'd argue with your statement. Remember that most of the walking corpse variations are better than the default one. Depending on a variation they have better movement, better resistances or more hp. And, hell, a free unit with no upkeep that would otherwise cost 9-10 gold is a nice thing to have. Besides, Soulless is a pretty effective zombifier. So I almost always recruit one zombie when playing multiplayer.
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The_Other
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Re: Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by The_Other » March 20th, 2012, 6:26 pm

I like to sit them in vulnerable villages and leave them there. It frees up your better units for active combat, and even if/when the WC dies the enemy can't immediately capture the village (unless they use another unit to do so, in which case that unit isn't fighting for a turn). Don't worry too much about advancing them (unless your opponent is also undead, in which case the Soulless' impact attack somewhat compensates for the Plague ability not working). Feed them easy kills only if you (for some reason) desperately need another WC.

If you somehow end up with a large number of them (fairly unlikely in MP, but can easily be arranged in undead-based campaigns), they have various unlikely uses - stagger behind enemy lines to threaten villages (it won't work, but it distracts a more-effective enemy unit) or block hexes around enemy leaders and healers to reduce their usefulness.
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BasiC
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Re: Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by BasiC » March 20th, 2012, 7:53 pm

I just think it would be nice to change them somehow...
Wouldnt it make more sense to give soulless another level? that way in 1v1s where lvl 3 is very rare anyway a soulless would be a good unit to give xp to...
although the question still arises...When do you actually use them as oppose to something else...

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alexanderthegre
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Re: Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by alexanderthegre » March 20th, 2012, 11:19 pm

BasiC wrote:I just think it would be nice to change them somehow...
Changing something or the sake of changing it makes no sense.
BasiC wrote: Wouldnt it make more sense to give soulless another level? that way in 1v1s where lvl 3 is very rare anyway a soulless would be a good unit to give xp to...
WCs already don't level up any more often than any other unit. Adding a second level would drastically unbalance any campaigns using them, such as DiD.
BasiC wrote: although the question still arises...When do you actually use them as oppose to something else...
I use them against Undead, Drakes and Kaliphate. And dwarves. Pretty much anything but rebels and loyalists. And even then, vs rebels they're pretty usefull.

Huumy
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Re: Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by Huumy » March 21st, 2012, 5:51 am

BasiC wrote:although the question still arises...When do you actually use them as oppose to something else...
I usually recruit one of them with my bigger army and most of the time I find very useful. Sometimes it's more useful to spawn extra zombie on the hex where enemy unit was instead of leaving it empty (ZoC can prevent your units moving on that hex).
Also the fact they are cheap and have no upkeep makes them sometimes useful when you need to sacrifice a unit to hold a hex on bad terrain or otherwise facing a certain death.

BasiC I recommend playing the game or watching top ladder players play, it's fun and entertaining. Also it answers many questions about unit balances and how units work in the actual game.

I hope you enjoy the game.
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BasiC
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Re: Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by BasiC » March 21st, 2012, 12:13 pm

Huumy wrote:
BasiC wrote:although the question still arises...When do you actually use them as oppose to something else...
I usually recruit one of them with my bigger army and most of the time I find very useful. Sometimes it's more useful to spawn extra zombie on the hex where enemy unit was instead of leaving it empty (ZoC can prevent your units moving on that hex).
Also the fact they are cheap and have no upkeep makes them sometimes useful when you need to sacrifice a unit to hold a hex on bad terrain or otherwise facing a certain death.

BasiC I recommend playing the game or watching top ladder players play, it's fun and entertaining. Also it answers many questions about unit balances and how units work in the actual game.

I hope you enjoy the game.
alright thats more like it, some of that sounds logical.
Oh,I have been watching ladder games...

Caphriel
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Re: Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by Caphriel » March 21st, 2012, 2:08 pm

Just because players are playing on the ladder does not mean they're good at Wesnoth. Check their ratings before making balance judgements based on their play. The starting rating when you join is 1500, if I recall correctly, so players with ratings below that tend to lose more then they win, and probably aren't good examples of accurate play.

Also, try playing some 1v1 on your own. I've seen you around on the server a few times, and you're always playing survival scenarios, or I think Colosseum. These are not like playing against other players at all, and playing them won't help you get better at anything but survivals.

Finally, use units.wesnoth.org as a reference, if you aren't already. It'll save you from making mistakes like claiming that the footpad costs 8 gold :)

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Re: Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by Madlok » April 11th, 2012, 10:11 am

In Ladder WC is commonly used. Sure, you don't level up your normal units, but enemy have to fight with your WC and he gets almost no experience too.
Quick bats are quick.

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danman5550
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Re: Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by danman5550 » May 19th, 2012, 10:50 pm

The zombies are pretty bad in MP, so I decided I'd build my own. If you'd like to look at 'em, they're in the spoiler. If not, just don't.

I figured that with more, and better evolutions, the zombies would actually be worth putting EXP into. They're most likely OP now, but that's a problem for later.
I can post the unit specs too if you'd like.

Caphriel
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Re: Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by Caphriel » May 20th, 2012, 4:16 am

Walking Corpses are awesome in multiplayer. Free units? Totally worth feeding them kills for, especially if you can level them up.

IK_German
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Re: Freaken Zombies everywhere

Post by IK_German » May 20th, 2012, 9:57 am

There were only 2 games, I used zombies: In the first one, I had 8 gold left at dusk and about to throw my leader into the final battle. That zombie never reached the front line though. In the second one I pushed ahead at night, fall back at day, while Loyalists were trying to hunt my skeletons down to the point, when all units were yellow or in the red. Then I send 2 zombies in and managed to create 3 new ones in just one turn, two of them with horses. With these 5 yellow/green zombies almost levelling up - instead of 1 (!) T2-unit after working all night - i simply flooded his villages, blocking castle hexes, stole terrain advantages and occasionally dealt some decent hits. It's not very much to compare with a griffon or wose, but since it adds up quickly, consuming very cheap units, it still is something the opponent has to deal with. I.e. you lose 3 zombies to a mage, if the 4th zombie kills it you won 4 gold and some XP in the net balance.

Zombies can be a massive threat, but like all other they are not a universal unit. Just pick the right situation in the right location at the right time and you can do amazing things with them. The biggest downside is their slowness, so you have to be a great strategist to start sending them to the frontline. Like woses, trolls and griffons, the luck factor affects them quite a bit.

Concerning XP and levelling: A T2-zombie is not something to use as an offensive force. It is tougher, stronger and hits 3 times, so statistically one sure retaliation. So don't use them as an attack force, but like T1-zombies. A zombie is most dangerous with 17/18 XP and that's why you shouldn't aim for levelling up, but to stop collecting XP quite before it does. A T2-zombie never will level and heal itself, but can act as a though wall, especially vs. primary melee fighters, that don't want to take the retaliation hit.

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