[mainline] Weaken the OP LT

[Kolbur]

Seeing as the 1.9 branch is in feature freeze atm, which is why the entire kalifate faction was removed since they would be unable to make balance changes, this change seems unlikely to make it into 1.9/1.10 if it does end up being accepted.

This is true but this discussion is overdue imo. Also I'm thinking about if it makes sense to use a modified default era, including the planned balance changes from the development version, for the ladder in the future to have a better base for discussing and testing balance changes in general.

[Mabuse]

I really like this idea! +5% hp would compensate for the lack of 6 mp however make the overall game much more dynamic. If this is a change that for sure can't happen or get considered for next release i would like to test it in the next dev version if that can happen to see how these 5 mp leaders really play out.

5% of 40 is 2.
so +2 HP "compensate" the loss of 1 MP ? surely not.

the game gets more dynamic if the LT lose 1 MP ?
interesting opinion. but surely something to argue about.

well, if you can do the math you will know that the LT would have 5mp, 42 HP, and 8-3 damage then

it is clear that the LT would be far weaker than the elvish captain then
(which doesnt make any sense if you ask me)
so again, giving LT a slow trait is no option IMO.


als kolbur list that divides leader into groups has its weaknessess.
for example the LT has not only low HP, it has also low damage.
the list also doesnt take terrain advantages into account. the elvish captain has advantages in woods for example.

if you ask me, for what its worth, giving the LT -1 damage, so that it has 7-3, is the only option, if people really feel it need to get nerfed. that woudl be extremely weak

[soul_steven]

you are missing the point. his attack is completely irrelevant. He could have a 5-3 attack and still e overpowered just for leadership+6 mp. You also have to keep in mind your comparing apples to oranges when you compare the LT and the captain since they are part of two complete separate factions with complete separate skills/weaknesses (namely tod advantage for Loy) Having leadership means even at night Loys are powerful since they are fighting like its dawn tod. Honestly I would rather see the LT go all together however I know that will never happen so only other option is to lower its mp so he at least isnt SO powerful.

[Mabuse]

umm, no.
the combat abilities of a leader are never irrelevant.
the elvish marksman is good because of his ability to deal a lot of damage for example.

in case of the LT they are irrelevant since the LT is ALREADY weak in fight
if you reduce its melee damage to 7-3 even, then LT would be just useable as a powerful Leadership unit

the loyalists have the best leadership unit since it has 6MP (in the role of being a leader/tactician).
i think it fits the loyalists style.

however, other leadership units (like elvish captain) may not only support their units, they may actually also take part in the fight. and deal good damage on their own. and survive.
which isnt unlikely, since you need to be near the battle to support your units.
so having bad combat abilities is in fact very relevant.

finally: leadership gives the elves the same advantages as the loyalists
elves with leadership fight during all TOD with +25%
loys have 0% at night and +50% at day (and 25% on dawn/dusk)

it shoudl be claer that just giving him slow trait (with 5% more HP) will make the unit a weakling. he wouldnt be able to fight, and woudl have the same leadership qualities as all the other leadership units which are good in combat.

[soul_steven]

[quote="Mabuse"]umm, no.
the combat abilities of a leader are never irrelevant.
the elvish marksman is good because of his ability to deal a lot of damage for example.[quote]

Again comparing apples to oranges the marksman has a complete different function then a leadership style unit.

I suppose I am not explaining myself correctly right now. When I mention its a different advantage for loys compared to elves its because of the unit composition and style of play of loys compared to elves. Imagine if you will UD getting a leadership unit. Do you not realize how this could create serious issues with how powerful adepts already are to add more damage to them? sure if you compare one leadership unit to another it may sound like its not op however when you take into account WHAT they are leadership and the role the leader plays for that faction you realize it is in fact a issue. The issue is loys are already a pain in the neck to ever try to attack even during night however with a LT it is 10 times harder. Anyways imo even if it goes to 5 mp it will still overpower just since he is in the loyalist faction however this is much nicer solution then what we have now for compensation i would give him 1 more damage and 6-8 more hp just rough guess.

[Mabuse]

Anyways imo even if it goes to 5 mp it will still overpower just since he is in the loyalist faction however this is much nicer solution then what we have now for compensation i would give him 1 more damage and 6-8 more hp just rough guess.

btw, giving the OLD "1.6" LT: 6mp, 48 hp and 9-3
the slow trait (-1mp +5% HP)

is something i could live with.
(5mp, 50HP, 9-3)

so either you make it 5 MP with acceptable combat abilities
or a weak 6mp "pure" leadership unit

[Kolbur]

You both have good points.
The overpoweredness of the Lieutenant stems from the synergy of 6mp and leadership. It means the zone of possible leadership reachable in 2 moves around the keep goes 2 hexes further than with the Elvish Captain. This makes a big difference and the damage output of the Lieutenant is not relevant in the consideration of this aspect.
Now if we discuss lowering the mp of him to 5 mp via traits it is only justified to compare him to the Captain in the combat ability as well. I think we all agree that Lieutenant is weaker in this regard. So I think he could get strong in addition to the slow trait. This way he would end up at 43 hp, 5 mp and 9-3 melee dmg. Slightly less hp than the Captain but on par.
Of course his stats could be simply changed to these values without any traits too. Hp could be changed to somewhere between 40-45 and damage to 9-3. Mp should stay at 6 mpfor campaign reasons however as a leader for multiplayer the slow trait should be applied, giving him hp in the range of 42-47 (Elvish Captain has 47 hp).

Btw: The Lieutenant hasn't changed since 1.6 at all, he was at 48 hp 6mp 9-3 damage in 1.4

[Haart]

Now if we discuss lowering the mp of him to 5 mp via traits it is only justified to compare him to the Captain in the combat ability as well.

To Flare. Captain is neutral, has better defences and more combat capability; Flare is, in my opinion, much closer to leutenant.

from the synergy of 6mp and leadership

Aren't 6 mp with human movetype at best as good as 5 mp with elvish/drake movetype?

[Kolbur]

...

from the synergy of 6mp and leadership

Aren'n 6 mp with human movetype at best as good as 5 mp with elvish/drake movetype?

No, not when you are talking about leaders only. There are not many obstacles on the important paths for leaders or else 5 mp leaders with normal movetype would have trouble in that regard

[Boldek]

The lieutenant has only an 8-3 sword and a 5-3 crossbow, not very serious weapons when matched up with the swordsman, with an 8-4 or that he has a crummy 40 hitpoints making him rather silly compared to a swordsman's 55, so maybe that armor and endurance all went into movement points. After all, his job is to run up and down the line helping soldiers, so removing his 6 mp would ruin his stats making him rather useless.

[soul_steven]

are you not paying attention? we talked of forming new stats for the LT in order to compensate for making him 5 mp.

[Xudo]

Lieutenant lose 1/6 = 16% of it's movement. More than that, it is not about quanity, it is about quality. Is it serious to give him only 5% of hp in return?
Slow trait can increase armor instead of hp. +10% for blade, blow and pierce will be enough, i think.

[The Black Sword]

This seems to have moved to a discussion about fixing all of the leaders, in which case I'd like to reiterate again that alternate era or an equivalent is the best solution IMO.
You can only use traits so much to mess around with units, being able to change their base stats gives you much greater freedom.
That said, applying traits to the current leaders would definetly be an improvement.

Some other points that I've considered when making alternate era:
1.Neutral leaders or leaders with alignment opposite to their faction is an important advantage. Most often leaders become used on the defense in your opponents power-phase, not yours.
2. A leader's offensive abilities are usually more important than its survivability IMO. Particularly units like longbowman and lieutenant rarely expose themselves to enemy attacks.
3. Leaders should be roughly as useful against all factions. Sure, your leader could rock everywhere else, but if he can't do anything vs drakes then that's a bad design. Similarly, a leader that is OP vs undead has a problem. The aim should be to make all matchups fun and even, not ignore the 5% that are not.
4. Theoretically you should be able to balance a 6mp leader which is weaker than a 5mp but just as useful. In practice I think that's quite hard to do and additionally throws up problems for map-making. So giving all leaders 5mp is the best IMO.
5.I remember a 5th point earlier, can't think of it now .

I think the lieutenant in alternate era is 5mp, ~48hp I think and 10% resists to blade, pierce and impact like the general. I'd agree slow probably makes him too weak. If you're sticking with the traits idea then slow+resilient looks good IMO.

[Boldek]

are you not paying attention? we talked of forming new stats for the LT in order to compensate for making him 5 mp.

Yes, and removing his movement would basically remove his worth. Leaders should be fast runners but not ideal tanks. Making him a swordsman with leadership would ruin his purpose of being a risky front line leader to just a special swordsman. The 40 hp and 6mp states that his armor and muscle went into in speed, which is quite accurate that front lines commanders have a higher mortality rate due to them being the ones that lead the grunts and charging around. giving him 5mp and better stats would bog him down from rushing up and down the line of spearman and capturing villages. Then giving him 55hp and a better sword would make him a preferable fighter over the swordsman and your lieutenants aren't supposed to be super soldiers. The reason they are officers is because either they were capable of living long enough in the service to get noticed or because he was a nobles son who got sent into the academy. What I'm saying is that giving him 5mp with better hp or weapons would ruin the lieutenant and make him boring. now giving the general and marshal 5mp would make sense: they are high ranking guys that sit in the keep and discuss battle plans, so slowing down the general would make more sense. But I think one reason for the LT to have six is so that the ai sends him at the head of the charge, very cool, but not what the human player does.

[AlexanderK]

As far as I remember it is impossible to get water village on the map Isar Cross with lieutenant on turn 1, but Elvish Ranger and Drakes can do the bloody job. Well, it is a good compensation for drakes for their weakness, so if daytime is coming they can start rock&roll right from the turn 2. I would recommend lower Elvish Ranger MP's rather than LT.