[Complete] BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by Crendgrim »

While I definitely support Dauntless in everything he said, I'd like to add a few things myself. Before I start, I'd like to note that I'm only a supporter of the tournament, and not an organizer.
First of all, I do like neki's idea, for it seems to me that it's offering much fun to everyone, a small reward to the winner (I dare not to say "the best player", as luck can do much harm in Wesnoth) and actually no harm to anyone. I do not know the reasons why there were developers' voices against this, but I cannot think of any good either. The only thing which could happen is that someone takes this too seriously and cries upon losing a game. But seriously, I dare to say that such a person may do the same in a non-rewarded game as well. All of the good Wesnoth players I know are very friendly, and most of them act always in a serious and respectable manner. I do know that there are other players (just have a look at some random games), but those are not too likely to pass the qualification round anyways. And losing in the qualification is frustrating, but it doesn't give any reason for quarrels which could destroy the community (which, actually, is the only problem I can see).

However, I seriously do encourage everyone who watched neki's video not to continue the spamming. Of course is it nice to see that people are supporting this tournament, but upsetting the moderators won't do any good. It would be quite a shame if this thread would be locked, and the chances of BWI would get destroyed even more by this.

Regarding the cheating, we already prevented the probably most common way: There was an add-on created which prints the facing races in the scenario objectives, so someone who saveloads the game in another instance of Wesnoth doesn't have such a big advantage there. Of course, it's still possible to see through FoW and see Woses etc. this way, but we have to believe in the sincerity of most players anyways: There are always chances to cheat, and we just cannot prevent everything.
And apart from seeing more there is no way someone could cheat: All gold, unit etc. modifications will immediately result in OOS errors, thus the evilest ways to cheat are prevented already by Wesnoth itself.


Crend

EDIT:
I actually got input from a nice guy, and see now that there may be legal problems with Wesnoth hosting a money-based tournament.
Last edited by Crendgrim on November 1st, 2011, 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by Cackfiend »

I support the BWI prize tournament solely because it is sponsored by an outside source and not requiring participants to pay any type of fee.

Encouraging players to play in a tournament where there is a cash prize can definitely bring up some issues though so I am not at all surprised that there is controversy. Although this tournament is not against the Terms of Services it is generally considered by the devs as against the spirit of wesnoth.


I agree with Dauntless that most of this debate should be done privately between key people. There are many questions to be asked and answered im sure.


If the main idea is to promote Wesnoth in a positive way then I am behind it. If it has some underlying devious scheme then I am not.


Starcraft would be a decent example of what this type of tournament has done for a video game. Korea made starcraft tournaments on TV into a huge nationwide sport with cash prizes.
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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by lipk »

Well, guys, you're seeing too much into this. Evil schemes and conspiring devs.

There's a misinterpretation of the term Open Source here. In an Open Source Project, you, the User can affect the development just like a Developer. This is democracy. This is why the rant goes on here. But there's crucial fact overlooked. In an Open Source Project, a Developer, just like you, the User, can say
NO
with no explanation. This is also democracy.

Of course, it'd be nice if they gave some hints on their opinion, or there could be widespreading conspiracy theories about anti-competitive trusts in the headquarters, but the same stands for neki.
What's beyond "isupportthistournamentblahblahblah"?
What does the money prize exactly serve for? What are the mentioned "effects on the community"? What is the "direction" the devs are said to dislike?

Without those given, there's nothing really to argue about (besides technicals like cheating).
Currently, I can only say that I don't like it much. Why? I don't know. Call it my hatred towards money.
Last edited by lipk on November 1st, 2011, 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by alpha1 »

I find it kinda ironic how all the talks of cheating and potential prohibiting of the tournament for security reasons may actually cause more cheating, than would have normally happened... self-fulfilling prophecy, eh?
But generally i agree with what Dauntless said, and while i don't want to meddle in this case with my limited knowledge of the all the potential issues involved, i still believe that the positive sides of the tournament outweigh the negative ones.
Last edited by alpha1 on November 1st, 2011, 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by Gambit »

You (neki) are deliberately obscuring the argument. The problem isn't "competitive Wesnoth". Competitive Wesnoth already exists. There are lots of tournaments already going on (Grand Tag, King of the Frontier, Conquest, Time Twister) and then there's the ladder. They play on the official server with no problems.
Some of those tournaments even got official redirect subdomains of wesnoth.org to help them advertise. http://tgt.wesnoth.org http://kotf.wesnoth.org
So why is that?


The problem is not "competitive Wesnoth". The problem is the money and the potential legal issues that come out of that.
This discussion is based on entirely the wrong point and serves nobody except those who like chaos.


I'm not a lawyer but here's some things I see right off the bat:
Is Wesnoth liable for losses?
Is it online gambling?
If wesnoth.org crashes during a game for cash can you sue us? (you haven't agreed not to)
Permits? Licenses? Insurance?

All these things have to be considered, but you just went straight to "The developers don't like my idea and you need to go spam the forums to convince them." It hasn't even been 24 hours yet.

It would be much easier if you just got an official server for this community/tournament you're trying to set up. There would be 100%, absolutely certain, no risk to Wesnoth.


As to why we've not heard from the developers about this; I doubt they even know. Neki has insisted on only talking to Dave about this. And this is a business/legal matter so it's very uncomfortable to talk about for someone who is only here to make/play a game. And again, they've had less than a day to find out about this and formulate their thoughts.

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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by jb »

Drop the prize money and there is no problem with this tournament.

Wesnoth can't be responsible for any transfer of funds that may be construed as a gift and/or reward with proper regard to international tax laws. Neither do we have the proper paperwork needed for reporting said incomes. Furthermore, Wesnoth is unable to distinguish the age of it's players, opening the possibility that minors could participate without their parents consent.
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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by Noy »

In the past few weeks several individuals have been discussing the possibility of a monetary prize tournament.

After considering the matter, we have decided that such tournaments should not be hosted on the wesnoth server. First there are legal implications that the project cannot underwrite and thus must avoid (as jb noted above). Furthermore we believe that Wesnoth was never designed to be secure enough to run prize tournaments. Nor will it be without a major development effort, one that would never remove 100% of the defects.

For most tournaments and ladders, there are no tangible prizes, thus there is little inclination to cheat or hack the code. We have have been supportive of these types of games, hosting them on our forum and making alterations to the code to allow save games to be downloaded externally. However even then this year we witnessed the Ladder almost collapse due to rampant cheating. While the cheating on the ladder was only confined to that system, introducing prize tournaments only makes it more attractive for people to find flaws in our program and to exploit them. The prize money itself, in essence becomes a bounty for cheating. One of the reasons why people continue to play Wesnoth is because they believe the game is secure and the outcome is fair. Paid tournaments present a major threat to that. This is an eventuality that we would like to avoid. For that reason and legal issues, we cannot allow prize tournaments to happen on our server. However as an open source program we cannot bar people from utilizing the source code for their own ends. Thus if someone would like to host a paid tournament on their own server, we have no issue with that.

Sincerely yours

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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by Cackfiend »

Sounds about right Noy, not surprised at all there.


I do believe, for example, that the first Starcraft prize tournaments were also hosted on private servers and not Battle.net :)
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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by neki »

Cackfiend wrote:Sounds about right Noy, not surprised at all there.


I do believe, for example, that the first Starcraft prize tournaments were also hosted on private servers and not Battle.net :)
You cannot play Starcraft2 without Battle.net connection.

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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by Boldek »

guys, I guess I am just echoing the devs, but seriously? money!? dude, what next, transmitting forms to e-harmony? I let my kids play this game because it is totally awesome, free, and doesn't require crazy security checks, connections to my bank account, or any information. Even if it was on some random server, next there will be people screaming in the users about cheaters, bribes, information checkpoints, crazy stuff.
just my two cents: wesnoth is an open source game, and even if it wasn't on the main server, I would hate to taint Wesnoth's beauty and honor with money. in or out. that's why I don't play warcraft.
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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by Noy »

lipk wrote: Of course, it'd be nice if they gave some hints on their opinion, or there could be widespreading conspiracy theories about anti-competitive trusts in the headquarters, but the same stands for neki..
Well truth be told I did not know about this until hearing about it during a random discussion on Saturday (could have been as early as Thursday, but that's not a big difference). I had to go and consult alot of developers too, so that took time.

There are also hints in the stuff we've stated about competitive gaming that should have raised a red flag on this.
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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by thefish »

hello all

1)Whos dave?
2)what are the reasons for not supporting the tournament at the main server?

have fun

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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by Lancelote »

thefish Just read this topic and Noy's post in particular.

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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by Boldek »

Lancelote wrote:thefish Just read this topic and Noy's post in particular.
Okay, why does that matter?
thefish wrote:hello all

1)Whos dave?
2)what are the reasons for not supporting the tournament at the main server?

have fun
who's Dave? The Dave? Dave is the main dev and if my memory serves correctly, created this game. Yeah, he's kind of important.

What are the reasons? Reason one: the main server is open and free. no information, no crazy security, and no money. Reason two: When I play Wesnoth, I play it because I love it. And I love the values and honor in this game, not to mention the sheer fact it is the best game in the world, and it's free. I, for one, would hate to have it turn into an online gambling den.
Reason three: My kids play on that server, and I wouldn't want them to have to request my credit card number, have to sign out a stupid form, or have to pass some sort of security test. I love wesnoth's honor system and trust and generally shy away from something that would complicate the system. Reason 4: No seriously, did you see Neki's website? 470 euros?!!!? That's just gonna attract gamblers and would pull down the tone of the place.

that's right, I oppose this tournament because I support Wesnoth in general.
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Re: BWI - Brutal Wesnoth International - Prize Tournament

Post by pauxlo »

Wesnoth is not safe against cheating (easiest by eliminating fog of war).

Anyone looking to manipulate the client source code to win a prize by cheating in the tournament can also use this hack to cheat for "normal" MP games - so I can understand that the developers don't like this idea.

That said, moving the tournament to a separate tournament server does nothing here (other than creating a little burden for the organizers, and the players/observers):
The fog-cheating there is as easy as cheating on the main server (with the difference that the server's owner could possibly also manipulate the random numbers, so you have to trust another group of peoples that this hard-core cheating doesn't happen).

I don't really see what risk the Wesnoth project would have by permitting third parties on organizing a tournament on the server and distributing money to its winners. Wesnoth would never touch the money, and doesn't have to guarantee anything about the players and the games.
But I also don't know the legal situation in the server's jurisdiction (or, maybe more important, the jurisdiction of the people responsible for the server).

Edit to answer to boldek's post:
boldek wrote: What are the reasons? Reason one: the main server is open and free. no information, no crazy security, and no money.
This is no reason, this is just a fact (or "opinion").
boldek wrote: Reason two: When I play Wesnoth, I play it because I love it. And I love the values and honor in this game, not to mention the sheer fact it is the best game in the world, and it's free. I, for one, would hate to have it turn into an online gambling den.
If someone else plays for (the hope to gain some) money, this doesn't change anything for you. The game would stay free, the server would stay free (both in the speech and beer sense). There just is some sponsor which will distribute money to the winners of some tournament.
Nobody is forced to join the tournament.
boldek wrote:Reason three: My kids play on that server, and I wouldn't want them to have to request my credit card number, have to sign out a stupid form, or have to pass some sort of security test. I love wesnoth's honor system and trust and generally shy away from something that would complicate the system.
There is no reason to think that access to the server would now need anything of those.
Maybe participants of the tournament will somehow show that they are real people (this is up to its organizers), but neither you nor your kids have to.
boldek wrote:Reason 4: No seriously, did you see Neki's website? 470 euros?!!!? That's just gonna attract gamblers and would pull down the tone of the place.
Okay, now we come to a real reason.

Assuming you get in the final round-robin round, there are seven games to play. Before that, you have to play three to five qualifying games.
So at least ten games of each some hours. If you are one of the first two (I assume they will get the bigger part of the money), add two or three more games.
I don't know how much you earn per hour, but taking part in this tournament is not a quick way to gain money. (Also, "gamblers" usually have to invest their own money hoping to gain something. Here a sponsor pays everything.)

And, a gambler who didn't know Wesnoth before will have about no chance in this tournament.



Ah, one more point: I will not participate (I would have no chance anyways), but I follow neki's youtube channel and will watch most games casted there.
Last edited by pauxlo on November 1st, 2011, 8:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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