Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

[mattsc]

Hello All, it appears that I need some help with the instructions in the second battle scenario (Treasure). I have tried to set up the dialog so that it explains everything that needs to be done, but apparently that's not the case. (This is separate from the issue that there is a certain way how you're supposed to move through it, which I have addressed above.) So, here follows a description of what dialog is there and what I meant to say with it as far as gameplay is concerned. Any hints where this might not be sufficient would really help me a lot.

Spoiler:

Releavant dialog snippets (this isn't entire dialog, just the parts that contain important information)

Dialog:
"Faulorn's greed has gotten the better of him again. He sent almost all his men on a raid against the saurians in the Eldryanic Swamps. Apparently, they are hoarding some huge treasure. He even pulled off all but the southern sentinel. We don't expect them back for about 2 days."
"That's good news indeed. With only that sentinel in place, Faulorn cannot see what is going on inside Versholn Valley, so let's take that route."
And, from the objectives:
"Relieve Faulorn of his unearned treasure, then return to Shmaltupp""

This is supposed to tell the player: Go over to Faulorn's castle to get his treasure, go through Versholn Valley (marked on the map). You have about 2 days (12 turns, give or take a bit) to get there. After you're done with this, you have to return to Shmaltupp (which is also marked on the map).

Dialog:
"And what happens then?"
"I don't know yet. I'll figure it out as we go along. But one thing is certain, we must take Faulhorn by surprise. We cannot let them woodsmen up there delay us, even if they're still bitter about last time."

Meaning: more instructions to come in a little while, but in any case, get there quickly, don't get caught up by fighting the woodsmen that will come after you, but go by them as quickly as possible.

Then there's the dialog about Grnk having to level up. I think the issue here is more about whether this is the right thing to do rather than that it's not clear, so I'll skip that.

Additional dialog once you enter Versholn Valley:
"Faulorn will not see us as long as we are inside Versholn Valley. We can also hide in the mountains and forested hills on its eastern end. So let's line up over there and take him by surprise. The later he sees us the better."

Meaning: Go to the eastern end of the valley, stay on forested hills and mountains for as long as possible, then jump out all at once with as many troops as possible.

Then:
"Our goal is actually not Faulorn's castle itself, but his fortress a little to the north. That's were he keeps his money."
"How many guards are there at the fortress?"
"It's hard to say since they spend most of their time somewhere in the dungeons drinking and playing cards. My guess would be about half a dozen."
"That's not too bad then. Faulorn is going to charge as soon as he sees us, but these guards are cheap mercenaries who only care about their pay. They will stay in place unless we provoke them by attacking them or stepping into the fortress."
"But then, how do we get to the money?"
"That's where little Grnk here comes in. I bet he knows how to sneak by them and take the gold."
"... Be warned though that the chest is almost certainly alarmed. If I were you, I'd move in and out as quickly as possible."

So: Once you come out of the hills, Faulorn will charge after you, but the guards (of which there are roughly 6) will stay put until you step into the castle, which Grnk has to do to get the treasure. He's advised to move in and out quickly, since getting the treasure will trigger the alarm and the guards will start coming after him.

After you have done that, there is additional information to give the stolen gold to Gertburt for new recruits and how to do the retreat (for which it is specifically stated that there are two options). I'll skip this here because this is getting way long already, but am happy to add it if desired.

So, honestly, I don't see where the statement "because the dialogue won't tell you!" comes from. (And I am not saying this to be argumentative. I want you to have fun playing this campaign, but apparently I don't see what to do about it.) Yes, there's a lot of instruction and you need to read it pretty carefully, but in my mind, it is all there. I must have played it so often that I cannot see the missing information any more.

Again, this is separate from the issue of whether anybody likes scenarios in which you have to follow a procedure to that extent. I address(ed) that elsewhere and will try to do something about that also.

Thanks for any insight anybody is willing to share!

[WanderingHero]

Ok tried V 1.4.

What did you change on the treasure scenario? I used my old save (after updating to 1.4) so im worried it may have gone on to the same version of the scenario. Also even when i march up to the scenario quickly enough and get grnk in, how do I get him to escape without being sandwiched by the lv2s?

I did notice when i played scenario one in 1.3 that i seemed to have more bandits, but i wondered if that was just that i gained experience from playing the campaign. I should have said.

Also hypothetically, what would easy mode change in this scenario?

[mattsc]

Ok tried V 1.4.

Thanks for continuing to test and send comments!

What did you change on the treasure scenario? I used my old save (after updating to 1.4) so im worried it may have gone on to the same version of the scenario.

I haven't really changed that scenario yet because what I think should be done to it requires more work than I have time for right now (it would affect later scenarios also). I will do that at some point, but definitely not in the next couple weeks. Well, I did give the player a bit more gold and more turns, but that happened very early on (1.0.1, I think). If you have suggestions what could be done that is relatively easy to do right now, that would really help me.

Also even when i march up to the scenario quickly enough and get grnk in, how do I get him to escape without being sandwiched by the lv2s?

Spoiler:

Here's my method: Line up most of Rutburt's unit at the edge of the mountains and forested hills. Jump out with as many of them as possible, blocking both the troops in the south and the guards. If you position Grnk right, he can move in and out in one turn, the turn after you step out from the hills (this might be a line that I had in the dialog and deleted at some point - maybe I should reintroduce it?) and be surrounded by Rutburt's other troops. Then you retreat, protecting your important units with the less important ones. Yes, you will lose some of them in the process, but if you choose to go north, you will be able to hire new ones with the gold Grnk just stole.

I've been trying to have Rutburt tell you all of this in the dialog. Let me know which part doesn't come across clearly enough and I'll fix that. (And just to say it again: I agree that this is very scripted and strict old-style PRG-like and I will change (some of) that in a future release, but for now it is what it is, so at least I would like the instructions to be clear.)

Also hypothetically, what would easy mode change in this scenario?

Spoiler:

You have more gold and your enemies have less:
Rutburt 196 137 103 (easy/medium/hard)
Woodsmen: 99 99 149
Faulorn: 123 173 223

Rutburt gets more gold after the treasure is stolen: 120 90 60

You have more turns until Faulorn's troops show up: 14 11 9 (if you don't trigger them earlier by stepping out of the hills)

There is not (yet?) a conceptual difference in how the scenario works for the different levels.

EDIT: slightly changed on sentence inside the first spoiler tag to make it clearer what I mean.

[Rowanthepreacher]

Hmm. Played it again on medium, and it's... good. I've just stolen the treasure and escaped, and I've got to say that there's some real improvement. It's no walk in the park, and I'd still consider it a challenging campaign, but now... it's fun. Really. I've yet to see what it's like later on, but yes, it does appear to have been improved by this slight tweaking of difficulty.

I'm always sad that my goblin pillager can't reach the exit too, though

EDIT: Ok, I've gotten even further. You've set the rest of the missions up very well. They're interesting and it always looks like things are heavily stacked against the player, but when I actually get going, the missions are easier than they seem. Very nice work, and well worth continuing with. Seems I have a soft spot for Wesnoth Goblins.

[mattsc]

Cool! Thanks, RtP. Great to hear that you are enjoying it more now; and the following scenarios as well.

I'm always sad that my goblin pillager can't reach the exit too, though

Indeed... But then, as Grnk says at the very beginning, he wouldn't want anything to do with him after he gets to town anyway.

Seems I have a soft spot for Wesnoth Goblins.

Uh oh, you better stop half-way through the 2nd part of the campaign then, when it comes out a year from now or so.

[Rowanthepreacher]

Heh. I've got more now though. Having played a few more missions (The nightstalker mission was awesome by the way, and an excellent example of looking totally unwinnable), it's shaping up really well. No glaring grammatical or spelling mistakes, the missions are interesting and whatnot.

The guys crisscrossing the city is nice, but waiting 20 minutes for everyone to finish walking about is a pain in the arse. Would you mind reducing the number of townsfolk in the city at any one time?

EDIT: Sorry, there's a preference for that, ignore me.

[mattsc]

Heh. I've got more now though. Having played a few more missions (The nightstalker mission was awesome by the way, and an excellent example of looking totally unwinnable), it's shaping up really well. No glaring grammatical or spelling mistakes, the missions are interesting and whatnot.

Thanks!!

The guys crisscrossing the city is nice, but waiting 20 minutes for everyone to finish walking about is a pain in the arse. Would you mind reducing the number of townsfolk in the city at any one time?

EDIT: Sorry, there's a preference for that, ignore me.

Hah, too late! You'll have to "listen" to my reply now. First, I was going to ask whether you were playing this part at accelerated speed (it seems you are now). Watching it at normal speed would indeed be very painful. I'd in principle not be opposed to change the number, but there's a reason why I have set it up this way:

Spoiler:

For the most part, I want there to be enough units for Grnk to easily find somebody to pickpocket from (or to try what happens when he attacks them). There's also supposed to be the occasional L2 unit in between, which gives you more money when picking. Same for the rats. Enough that Grnk can reach one on bad terrain easily, but not so many that it takes forever to watch them move. This is actually the reason why I doubled Grnk's moves in town, so that we don't have to wait for the villagers to move all that much. I was trying to find an acceptable balance between those two goals.

Ok, I'll shut up now...

Anyways, if you think it's fast enough to play it on accelerated speed (or by skipping AI moves), it sounds like we're good. Thanks again for all the comments!

[Rowanthepreacher]

More news. No unexpected crash when defeating Karcyn, but I -did- get one during my first turn as the bandits in the second crater mission (I did as Rutbert told me).

Having played even more, I've got to say that it feels like you got lazy after the first few AMLAs. The options started off interesting, but then it became standard unit advancement. I'd like to see more unique AMLAs for Grnk, especially one that re-equips him with a ranged weapon.

[mattsc]

More news. No unexpected crash when defeating Karcyn, but I -did- get one during my first turn as the bandits in the second crater mission (I did as Rutbert told me).

Was it reproducible? As in, when you reloaded and did the same thing again, did it crash again? If so, could you send me the savefile? My problem with trying to troubleshoot this was that I could never make the same crash happen twice in this scenario, so I wasn't able to figure out what causes them.

Also, which version of BfW are you using? The only reproducible crash I've ever encounter (in a later scenario; there's a message there too) only happened in 1.9.8, not in 1.9.9. I haven't had a chance to look into this more closely, to see if it's a problem with my code or a Wesnoth bug.

Having played even more, I've got to say that it feels like you got lazy after the first few AMLAs. The options started off interesting, but then it became standard unit advancement. I'd like to see more unique AMLAs for Grnk, especially one that re-equips him with a ranged weapon.

You're right, there should be more. Actually, what happened is that I didn't realize how often you can get Grnk to advance until I did my final play-through. I'll do something about that. As for the ranged weapon, I need to do something about that anyway since it's a RIPLIB violation, as Elvish_Hunter pointed out. It's on the list.

[Rowanthepreacher]

It hasn't happened again, sorry. I'm using the latest (1.9.9) version, but it's working just fine now.

Confused Grnk gets a ranged attack, as well. Wow, he's all over the place.

OK.. more feedback. Please don't show every unit leaving the map when they say they're leaving. It's... really boring.. Is there any reason for them to -all- leave, or could they just disappear?

[mattsc]

OK.. more feedback.

Great! Thanks. This is really helpful.

Please don't show every unit leaving the map when they say they're leaving. It's... really boring.. Is there any reason for them to -all- leave, or could they just disappear?

From a WML point of view there's no reason for this at all. In fact, it's less work if they don't. I did this to make it more "realistic", but I agree, it can be quite ... tedious if lots of units are leaving. There are probably some instances where I want to keep it that way, but it's clearly not necessary all the time. It's been added to "the list". (In the meantime, brace yourself for the very end of the campaign. There are a lot of units leaving there and I probably won't get to doing something about that before you get there.)

[Rowanthepreacher]

Heh, more feedback.

The feedback is spoilered, because it contains...spoilers.

Spoiler:

I've stopped playing, because Wizards is unwinnable. Strangely enough, it's not because they have too many units, or they're too powerful (I've lost a lot of mages, but we're winning). The problem is that Gertburt isn't -really- invisible. While most units won't directly attack him, Rutburt's forces line up to block him no matter where I go, and yes, I've tested different routes and every time they set up to block me. Also, footpads appear to completely ignore the invisibility and just go straight for Gertburt. Dunno why this is, but it's the behaviour I've observed. How am I supposed to sneak Gertburt past, when they're actively defending against him?

Apart from that, I've been enjoying the campaign immensely, and I'm glad I gave it another go.

[mattsc]

Hmm, strange. Somebody else had that problem, but I thought I'd fixed that. Could you send me two savefiles, please? These:

Spoiler:

The one from just before he becomes invisible, and one of a turn where you observe this behavior. This shouldn't be like that. If everything is working, they all ignore Gertburt, so I am suspecting a bug in the code. Thanks.

[Rowanthepreacher]

Ok, i'll get round to it this weekend.

[WanderingHero]

Well I beat scenario 2. I have to admit that while aggravating, theirs a certain satisfaction in getting through its puzzle difficulty, though the face such an early scenario is rigid, extremely hard and composed of multiple, very difficult parts is irksome. I save loaded (not to rng abuse, just because their was no way I was going back to turn 1) and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

Played it again and beat mercs. It was pretty fun and a lot less irksome.

How does it affect the story if I go with Rubert? I chose to go my own away and though I could reload the end of the scenario, but I forgot on my home pc i set it to delete turn saves when I've beaten a scenario