Heir to the Throne: Portraits

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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by Sgt. Groovy » September 24th, 2011, 8:27 pm

a guy smiles like this: :D and a girl smiles like this :) (I think)
I don't think it's a gender thing. More likely, a closed mouth smile is more reserved (shy, placating), while an open mouth one is more outward, bold or even arrogant. According to her station and character, the latter should fit Lis'Sar just fine.
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

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Jetrel
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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by Jetrel » September 24th, 2011, 8:45 pm

rmj wrote:She also looks too old.
Most of your post is dismissable, but I am going to treat this one bit fairly, because it is a valid complaint given previous assumptions: Her age, and Konrad's age, have both been raised about 2/3 of a decade versus the previous portraits. Konrad and Lisar are now both about 22-28, give or take. What the exact age is doesn't matter; the key thing though is that they're now unequivocally adults, rather than teenagers.

Partly this is just to get away from tired cliches about kids saving the world, but also it's to provide leverage for more interesting character depictions, since they're old enough to be experienced (again avoiding the teenager trope of having clueless buffoons who need remedial education on everything, which really tends to bog down writing), but young enough to not be jaded, and to not be set in their ways and beliefs.
rmj wrote:Lisar needs to drop thirty or forty pounds; she should not be an amazon. Her ability was as a commander, not necessarily as a warrior. One of the primary considerations in portraying Lisar is that Konrad finds her attractive.
:annoyed: You're really giving a case-study in why things that are purely matters of opinion aren't welcome as artistic critique. Because this isn't a matter of technical detail, you run into situations like this where other reasonable people completely disagree with you - and are justified in doing so. All of these things you listed as "bad" are exactly what we specifically wanted.

Sorry to disappoint, but we're not making these to your tastes.

zookeeper wrote:Well, the thing is that her character is getting re-designed to precisely make her more of an armoured warrior rather than the agile princess in skimpy chainmail; her stats (and sooner or later, sprites) will change to reflect that. Such a change has been planned for years and will finally be done now that she's getting a portrait in that style.
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rmj
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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by rmj » September 25th, 2011, 5:23 am

You're really giving a case-study in why things that are purely matters of opinion aren't welcome as artistic critique.
I didn't realize that Wesnoth has become elitist.

This thread has averaged about one post every two days, is my suggestion so much of a burden to summon abuse? You should welcome such, instead of driving the opinions of others away. I do not demand that my views be adopted, merely considered.

Partly this is just to get away from tired cliches about kids saving the world, but also it's to provide leverage for more interesting character depictions, since they're old enough to be experienced (again avoiding the teenager trope of having clueless buffoons who need remedial education on everything, which really tends to bog down writing), but young enough to not be jaded, and to not be set in their ways and beliefs.
Are you saying the story is being rewritten as well as the art? If it is not, then that argument is not valid. Tutored by Delfador since infancy, Konrad would not be a buffoon. This campaign is not about kids saving the world anyway. It is Delfador and the elves who do so.

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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by Frogger5 » September 25th, 2011, 5:52 am

If this topic was open for a long debate, I doubt it will be much longer.
IMHO an older and more built up version of Li'sar is HIGHLY welcome. Li'Sar has always been one of the weakest* characters in the Campaign, and its good to see her change.

*In terms of her actual character, not her damage against enemies.
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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by Velensk » September 25th, 2011, 11:25 am

rmj wrote: I didn't realize that Wesnoth has become elitist.
The policy he was describing is in the critiquing guidelines thread.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by catwhowalksbyhimself » September 26th, 2011, 3:29 am

I for one love the more realistic approach to the portrayal of women in this game and find it greatly refreshing. I should also point out that I say this as a guy. I like the new portrait and think it's exactly what I'd expect a female warrior to look like, in both dress and build. I only wish other fantasy depictions were more like you guys.

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Jetrel
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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by Jetrel » September 27th, 2011, 4:31 am

rmj wrote:
You're really giving a case-study in why things that are purely matters of opinion aren't welcome as artistic critique.
I didn't realize that Wesnoth has become elitist.
"Being Elitist" is something we're proud of. We worked hard to build the skills, knowledge, and craftsmanship that make our opinions, on our area of expertise, better than yours. That is the primary reason this project has been a success - we respect the opinions of experts by giving them complete authority over their work; that's the only reason they give us the time of day, here.

You're free to voice your opinion, but you're not free to the entitlement of thinking your opinion is worth something. Frankly, for having the opinion that our female lead should be "yet another twiggy, anorexic waif" ... good heavens. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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rmj
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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by rmj » September 28th, 2011, 5:56 am

"Being Elitist" is something we're proud of. We worked hard to build the skills, knowledge, and craftsmanship that make our opinions, on our area of expertise, better than yours. That is the primary reason this project has been a success - we respect the opinions of experts by giving them complete authority over their work; that's the only reason they give us the time of day, here.
The changes to Konrad and Lis'ar are outside the domain of expertise of the artists; these are not solely a change in style (a change I like), but in character. Those in charge of such decisions should be interested in the opinions of regular users to such proposed changes.
You're free to voice your opinion, but you're not free to the entitlement of thinking your opinion is worth something. Frankly, for having the opinion that our female lead should be "yet another twiggy, anorexic waif" ... good heavens. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Twiggys, at least, exist in the world. This portrayal goes to the opposite extreme; Serena Williams would look weak next to her. You should be ashamed for succumbing to the notion that women must be depicted to be physically as strong as men, that to do otherwise is sexist, that to have an attractive woman is sexist. Bruce Lee was not large, but quite a warrior; so Lis'ar need not be an amazon.

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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by zookeeper » September 28th, 2011, 6:32 am

Ok, let's take a look. Here's Li'sar, Jennifer Aniston and Serena Williams. As we can see, Li'sar is quite a bit closer to Jennifer in build, whereas Serena's shoulders as almost as wide as Li'sar's in armour.
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lisar_jennifer_serena.jpg

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shadowm
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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by shadowm » September 28th, 2011, 6:36 am

rmj wrote:Those in charge of such decisions should be interested in the opinions of regular users to such proposed changes.
Well, it’s not like any significant amount of people have complained about Li’sar’s new portrayal. It’s not like all regular users can have relevant opinions, either. :)

To be perfectly honest with you, it irks me when people take a perfectly good working topic like this and derail it with discussions about whether XYZ non-technical design decision makes sense or not and such. Once an artist has started shading and coloring the linework, it usually means the actual relevant people (campaign maintainers, etc.) have already approved the concept and there’s no going back for anyone. These discussions only add noise and make the topic harder to read for everyone.
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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by Frogger5 » September 28th, 2011, 6:43 am

rmj wrote: The changes to Konrad and Lis'ar are outside the domain of expertise of the artists; these are not solely a change in style (a change I like), but in character. Those in charge of such decisions should be interested in the opinions of regular users to such proposed changes.
Huh? So your suggesting artists should be banned from making decisions and cant possibly have any expertise in character development? And that instead they should listen to one user who has a problem with it? lolwut.
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Jetrel
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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by Jetrel » September 28th, 2011, 7:15 am

Those in charge of such decisions should be interested in the opinions of regular users to such proposed changes.
This is exactly the sort of entitlement that really irks us; besides what shadowmaster rightly pointed out. Quite unlike the regular videogame industry, you are not our customer. You don't pay our bills, and we don't owe you anything. This is very different from how it usually works; get used to it. Being heard here is a privilege, not a right. Start acting like it.
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TheCripple
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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by TheCripple » September 28th, 2011, 2:54 pm

rmj wrote:Twiggys, at least, exist in the world. This portrayal goes to the opposite extreme; Serena Williams would look weak next to her. You should be ashamed for succumbing to the notion that women must be depicted to be physically as strong as men, that to do otherwise is sexist, that to have an attractive woman is sexist. Bruce Lee was not large, but quite a warrior; so Lis'ar need not be an amazon.
This is patently absurd for a whole host of reasons.
1) As the picture above shows, she's only somewhat larger than Serena, armored, even taking into account the difference in angle. Considering her line of employment and station, which basically guarantee both lots of exercise and a decent diet, musculature would be expected.
2) Stating that Li'sar is objectively unattractive in that picture is flatly wrong.
3) Portraying 1 character as physically strong is not an accusation of sexism towards anyone who portrays any other character otherwise. There are examples of characters who don't look physically strong in Wesnoth. Take a look at one Cylanna, from Deadwater.
4) Bruce Lee's physique is not the sum total of physiques seen in warriors. Li'sar has no reason to be a female Bruce Lee.

Onto the art: In the scepter image, there's a bit of an issue with the lighting from the scepter. The reflections on the plates are there, but the mail doesn't have either the tinge expected or the lighting expected. One would expect it to be a bit pinker in the areas nearest the flame, and probably a bit brighter as well. As of now, it is just subtly off.

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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by Pewskeepski » September 28th, 2011, 4:04 pm

I honestly like Li'sar's new look :)

I'd just like to add to TheCripple's comment on the scepter. It looks like the way the magical fire works in that portrait is different than how it works when Konrad holds it. Dunno, maybe it doesn't matter, maybe magic works in different ways.

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Re: Heir to the Throne: Portraits

Post by MoogleEmpMog » September 28th, 2011, 5:02 pm

The new Li'sar portraits are as excellent as I've come to expect from Wesnoth art and it's clearly far too late to change this, but I'm very sad to hear she's being changed to yet another medium-heavy infantry leader.

Li'sar was the only light infantry leader in the game. Combined with her use of fencers in the ambush in the first scenario she appears in, it always associated her with that line to me, and that association was a characterful one. It was an interesting distinction from Konrad and from the human campaign leaders in general. It also allowed her to effectively use her leadership on a different type of units.

I especially don't like the idea that art is dictating gameplay in this case, although in the campaigns at least I guess that's not much of a problem.

In any case, it can't be helped.

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