Who was winning? - replay analysis please

[CheeseLord]

Hi guys,
Played my first ladder game in ageees - been trying to get back into playing Wesnoth. Unfortunately, I was forced to concede as I had to go (I'm really not a fan of deadbeats, so really annoyed with myself), but after viewing the replay, I'm just wondering who you thought had the advantage (if anyone did). I personally thought it was shaping up to be a pretty closely fought game, but I've been out of practice for so long, no clue whether I'm right or not. I've personally identified a few mistakes myself, but if anyone also has the time to analyse my replay and point out any obvious mistakes, I'd be grateful. As a follower of Day9 and his Dailies (Starcraft 2 stuff for anyone who hasn't heard of him), I've sort of compiled a report of my observations below.

Spoiler:

I selected random in this ladder matchup. Probably the ideal leader for my faction. I wonder how by using a normal unit composition can one be on the offensive as Knalgans, because they seem an extremely reactionary race?? Personal comments below:

I notice that my opponent had a far more streamlined village grabbing pattern, and held 7 villages when I had 3 - maybe this could be improved in some way.

I also noticed that the opponent's initial recruitment didn't fill up all the spaces - is this a good tactic to save on upkeep?? I see how it is beneficial in this situation because I was dwarves and so there was no risk of being outnumbered (unless I went HODOR). However, I was random; would the opponent have risked being easily outmanoeuvred had I had a more mobile unit composition - ie drakes?

Turn 5: Was the poacher a little overeager - it was perhaps an unnecessary on my part, to advance that far forward - the poacher was severely injured, and this forced me to sacrifice the footpad to TRY to cover it (and only by luck did it survive)!

Turn 6: Perhaps the recruitment of the ulfserker was poor, considering the amount of elf fighters on the field. In hindsight, I would have assumed a more forward position on the right flank to try to scare the opponent - however, I had no view of the opposing troops there and didn't dare advance.

Turn 7: No major errors/musings. However, the opponent is in a far better position on the left. I was very proud of my decision to move the footpad to the right to draw troops away from the front , I felt that potentially saved me the game.

Turn 8: ARRGH!! Stupid move with the ulfserker - I basically lost 19g for nothing - waste of xp too. Left flank is exposed, but the central threat has been nullified. The footpad on the right probably shouldn't have attacked - that extra hp could have kept a fighter there for one more turn...

Turn 9: From this turn on, I'm pretty much always a village down. This is one reason of why I'm not a big fan of dwarves - too easy to be flanked and outmanoeuvred. Had this not happened, I would have been at a significant advantage at the point of gg. However, if those forces doesn't pull back by next turn, the opponent will be in trouble on that side. The dwarven fighter on the right flank shouldn't have attacked in retrospect - needless waste of hp for no gain.

Turn 10: I have a feeling that it was a poor decision to sacrifice the guard and fighter on the right flank - not sure though, because it held off the opponents forces for a couple of turns - VERY important as it gave my men time to recoup. Very happy that the opponent became too greedy on the left, as it resulted in the annihilation of most of the opposing forces there.

Turn 11: Nothing much that can be said. Took the turn to reposition and brace for impact.

Turn 12: Delighted that I now have a Steelclad to tank and be generally awesome. I think I was quite lucky in the centre (this game, I felt as though my leader really got into the action at the key moments). I guess that's the advantage of defending.

Turn 13: The incoming assault on the right flank is extremely threatening in my eyes - I know that the opponent has a potful of cash to splash next turn. The troops on the left flank are 'rushing' to assist the defence.

Turn 14: I sacrifice the dwarven fighter to attempt to see what the opponent has recruited (Starcraft 2 instincts I guess kicking in). Was fortunate to kill the archer on 23,9 but not complaining! I moved my fighter onto 27,7 - probably a bad decision to attack as it wasted valuable hp.

Turn 15: My luck held here - potentially could have been a beefy Elf Hero and his bodyguards running amok. At it is though, should be fairly safe on the right, and just have to worry about incoming troops.

Turn 16: I gtg

Further notes: I personally think that I had clawed back the deficit, and perhaps have held an advantage. It may be too early to tell, but my leader had a decent possibility of becoming a UBER OP L3 LORD - think of that sort of monster on my side!! In addition, I now have 1, possibly 2 steelclads if the fighter on 26,7 gets another kill against the two wounded elves. The left flank is once again quite vulnerable though, and the opponent has a considerable economic advantage.

Thanks in advance!!

[Velensk]

I’ll comment on your general comments first then go on a turn by turn through the scenario

-How you play offensively as knalgans is very dependant on what you enemy is, and yes, in general knalgans are a bit more defensive (unless they go hodor).

-A streamlined village grab is very important in almost every circumstance.

-It depends. If it slows down your village grabbing it’s never worth it, however in general saving some gold can let you adapt to what your enemy is and what they are doing without any disadvantage save the ability to exert pressure earlier. The upkeep save is at most a turn in general though as villages cancel out upkeep and once you have your full allotment of villages you should have enough upkeep relief for your inital recruit (except possibly as northerners on a low village map)

Turn 1: Much heavier on slow dwarves than I would recomend for a inital recuit vs a random opponent. More griffons our outlaws will help you get into position easier as well as help prevent you from being outmanuvered.

Turn 2: Your opponent would be leaving himself wide open for a number of chaotic rushes however since you are dwarf heavy you will not be able to take advantage of this.

Turn 3: No Comment

Turn 4: Footpad strikes me as an odd choice against rebels (no units you can safely throw stones at without retal) though I suppose you could us a scout on that flank.

Turn 5: The problem with the poacher move is that it let him attack you from cover at no expense. If you were bound and determined to cause trouble that night (which would probably not have been a good idea as you had no real advantage wit h that army comp then you might have been able to make it somewhat costly by positioning the eastern footpad where it could steal the village if he stepped off to attack you.

Turn 6: That combat result is about what I would have anticipated given the situation. I don’t think the ulfserker was a mistake as it does force rebels to play carefully with their more dangerous units.

turn 7: Personally, I think the footpad move was a mistake. It may draw a few units away from the conflict but it’s still essentially a free kill for him and in all honesty at that angle if you’d just retreated those units wouldn’t have been in a position any worse for you than the one they’re in now. The thunderer in the west needed to not expose himself if you wanted to hold your villages in the coming turns.

I have some issues with your opponents moves which I won’t bother going into right now.

Turn 8: With just slightly different positioning you could have saved the ulfskerker and still used it.

Turn 9: No Comment

Turn 10: I don’t feel that you were trading advantageously on the right. Two units doomed to certain death for chances at one kill and a village steal that would last a couple turns at best and misc damage.

As a related note: when trading units, is that like in chess where the person who kills last gets the square, in wesnoth the person who kills last gets to keep the experiance points.

Turn 11: No Comment

Turn 12: No Comment

Turn 13: No Comment

Turn 14: Unlike in starcraft, it generally isn’t worth sacrificing units for information even if they are cheap (and dwareven fighters arn’t). Your tactical decision on the right did not turn out well but it was a bad situation no matter how you played it.

Overall: With decent luck you might have been able to achieve a even situation shortly after you left but I will say that I think that on even odds he would have had you beat earlier. I would also point out that leveled up units eat up more upkeep and if you couldn't hold all your villages after that he'd begin to outnumber you even more making it even harder to keep them off your vilages.

Your opening was brutally slow, essentailly allowing him an extra elvish fighter worth of money over you about. You recruited mainly slow dwarves which can work against rebels but it will pretty much guarentee them the initative (though even if you had managed to regroup more gracefully from your first failed push it is doubtful that an outlaw heavy build would have given you the power to take initative). I did feel however that you could have used either thieves for their damage or poachers to deny him forest hexes for good effect here.

[CheeseLord]

Ahhh, thanks! An extremely insightful reply

I think that I still suffer from an irrational phobia of gryphons. Despite their usefulness, they seem ridiculously overpriced, and generally pretty weak against any archers. Especially when you compare them However, I can see how more outlaws at the start could help my village grabbing.

Turn 10: I don’t feel that you were trading advantageously on the right. Two units doomed to certain death for chances at one kill and a village steal that would last a couple turns at best and misc damage.

On turn 10 on the right flank, with the fog of war, I assumed he had quite a few units ready to march up on the right, and I sought to delay this push as my right flank was dangerously weak. In hindsight, I guess my right flank would have been ok had those two sacrificed units retreated to bolster the defences there.

Turn 14: Unlike in starcraft, it generally isn’t worth sacrificing units for information even if they are cheap (and dwareven fighters arn’t). Your tactical decision on the right did not turn out well but it was a bad situation no matter how you played it.

Point taken


So in future, I should restructure my initial recruitment - less dwarves, more outlaws. I still find it difficult to use outlaws though, so I guess I'll just have to learn by losing. I also need to lose the 'scouting' concept of starcraft - units CANNOT by thrown away willy nilly.

Again, a very detailed analysis from which I've taken several pointers from!!

[UDD]

If you have some time you might want to watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhmPo2UHDIc
It isn't just about dwarves or gryphons, but I think Neki demonstrates effective use of gryphons in this replay - using their mobility to his advantage (village grabbing, scouting, ZOCing etc.) and leveraging their attack by using their mobility to attack opportune targets and reinforcing where they can help.

EDIT: Oy, didn't notice it was quite a while since the last message was posted :X sorry, I don't read the forums that often :X