[interface] Ghost image

[ideans]

After we discovered a foggy area, a ghost image of seen units can remain..

[StDrake]

correct me if im wrong, but when you uncover fog the fog stays uncovered until you end you turn?
and after that the units there tend to move and that movement is meant to be concealed by the fog, leaving an image of something that might not be there anymore would only lead to confusion
I'm against

[grzywacz]

Of course it doesn't stay uncovered, unless you mean that peculiar bug in MP.

[DEATH_is_undead]

correct me if im wrong, but when you uncover fog the fog stays uncovered until you end you turn?
and after that the units there tend to move and that movement is meant to be concealed by the fog, leaving an image of something that might not be there anymore would only lead to confusion
I'm against

I thought this was the point of Delay Shroud function?

[fabi]

I like the idea.
It is quite known from other games that use fog of war.
Why is it confusing to discover that a unit that is displayed under fog of war
is no longer there when you lift the fog?

[SigurdFireDragon]

I think what OP means is illustrated by the following example:

During a game, you move your 10MP Elvish Rider. On it's 5th move, it sees an enemy. But you continue moving it, and at the end of all 10 of it's move points, the enemy seen is no longer in sight.

I think OP is asking that the enemy that was seen and is not seen anymore be marked as being in that hex until the end of the turn, so that any other units you have to move can take that into account, without the player always having to remember where the enemy was seen.

I know I'd find it useful, I've gotten units killed because I forgot where I saw an enemy, then moved weak units in range.

[Insinuator]

I know I'd find it useful, I've gotten units killed because I forgot where I saw an enemy, then moved weak units in range.

Actually, I think this is a good reason for it to stay the way it is. Part of the strategy of the game involves remembering where units are. Ghost images of glimpsed units would detract from this and clutter up the map, in my opinion.

[fabi]

Actually, I think this is a good reason for it to stay the way it is. Part of the strategy of the game involves remembering where units are.

Says who?
Wesnoth is a slow game especially when played with many players on the server.
I don't want to play Memory but Wesnoth.
Remembering the positions of Units 10 minutes later after a context switch (I am doing reallife stuff during the waiting time) is not what I even want to train.

Ghost images of glimpsed units would detract from this and clutter up the map, in my opinion.

Distract from what? Playing Memory? Hopefully.
Since this is only about units that are not seen since the last glimpse we don't talk about many units.
When the hex field gets visible or the unit is spotted elsewhere the ghost will get removed.
I don't think there will be that many ghosts around in a typical game.

[salade]

i think ghost image is useful, *and* also we should be able to mouseover it and see where it could move to

[Insinuator]

Says who?

Says me. A good strategy in multiplayer is to hide units from sight. Even if they're only briefly in sight, it is an advantage for them to remain hidden. If you miss that because you're distracted by something, bummer for you.

Distract from what? Playing Memory? Hopefully.

I said detract, not distract. Different words. And it clutters up the field by putting more images out there. A player could be confused and think it was an actual unit. Additionally, what happens if a unit is moved on top of the ghosted unit? Or what if two units reveal themselves on the same hex on the same turn? Will only the last unit be shown? Aw, but then you'd have to remember something.

[beetlenaut]

If you miss that because you're distracted by something, bummer for you.

At least in the default configuration, the game stops everything to tell you an enemy unit is visible. It's not really something you can miss! You could, however, forget exactly where you saw it. Besides, it's a poor strategy that relies on your opponent forgetting where your units are!

A player could be confused and think it was an actual unit.

Not if it was greyscaled or marked visually in some other way.

Additionally, what happens if a unit is moved on top of the ghosted unit? Or what if two units reveal themselves on the same hex on the same turn? Will only the last unit be shown? Aw, but then you'd have to remember something.

Obviously, neither of these scenarios can happen. You can't move your unit to a hex without seeing if an enemy unit is actually there or not, and you can't see two units on the same hex unless there are two units on the same hex.

[Insinuator]

At least in the default configuration, the game stops everything to tell you an enemy unit is visible. It's not really something you can miss! You could, however, forget exactly where you saw it. Besides, it's a poor strategy that relies on your opponent forgetting where your units are!

It most certainly does NOT. This is talking about what is displayed immediately following an enemy turn. That means that the enemies popping in and out of FoW are happening on your opponents turn. If we're just talking about what you see on your turn, then yes, the game pauses. Additionally, good strategy is not so simple as to rely on any one thing. Exploiting weaknesses is ALWAYS part of a good strategy.

Additionally, what happens if a unit is moved on top of the ghosted unit? Or what if two units reveal themselves on the same hex on the same turn? Will only the last unit be shown? Aw, but then you'd have to remember something.

Obviously, neither of these scenarios can happen. You can't move your unit to a hex without seeing if an enemy unit is actually there or not, and you can't see two units on the same hex unless there are two units on the same hex.

Of course they can. Illustration: An enemy Elvish scout moves in a V out of FoW and then back in. You see it only for a moment at the apex of it's "V-curve" and a "ghosted" unit remains as it dips back into the FoW. Next, your opponent moves his Elvish archer onto the spot where you sighted the scout... The conflict should be easy to see. The second situation is similar. The Scout moves as before. "Ghosted" image appears as before to remind our memory-challenged players. Now, the Archer follows it along the same path. Where does it's "ghost" go?

[tom030890]

I agree that units moving on your opponents turn popping in and out of the fog of war shouldn't be shown as ghost images. Too confusing with multiple units through 1 hex.

However, say you advance north and then attack south east with a cavalryman, with the north movement spotting a unit, A shadow unit could remain on the spot where you saw the unit that has re-fogged until you either reveal the fog again, or end your turn.

You could then mouse over the unit to see where it could move to in it's next turn, allowing better move planning, without slowing the game as people make notes as to where precisely the spotted unit could go. If it is important they will make a note, and to my mind this simply slows down players turns.

[SigurdFireDragon]

Ok, I think I see what the disconnect is now.

My example is confined to the player's turn only, when no one else can move. In that situation, in all the sighting of the enemy I am refering to, the enemy is actually there and not moving. These ghost image markings would be made only for the benefit of the active player, and removed when the player's turn was over, or when it got back to the player's turn (probably should be back to player's turn, to be consistent with other 'turn refresh' events like healing.)

@Insinuator: It seem you are addressing the issue of when it's not your turn, and someone's unit comes into range, and then back out of range. In this example, the player only knows that something was there if they were looking at the screen the whole time and saw it move. If a ghost image was placed in this case, it would have to be different than a ghost image placed in the first example, because it does not correspond to an actual enemy location, just that an enemy was near here. (in a multiplayer game, this enemy could be killed by someone else by the time it got back to your turn.) The ghost image here could take the form of a mulit hex notation, showing the unit type and what direction it was moving in.

These are two related, but different cases.
In the first one, I feel ghost images should be applied, and that it is clear that this wouldn't involve the issues in the second example.

In the second, that's a bit more complicated. As I understand the argument, players who watch the screen the whole time can get additional information over those that don't. When I've played against the computer, I can often figure out where it is moving a unit with ambush to, because the non-forest movements are made visible. Thus, the issue here is should it stay the same, or should those not paying attention be provided with the info.

[Insinuator]

Ah, I see what you mean. Yes, if this is only applied on player's turn, that makes more sense. I still think that would weaken the effectiveness of FoW, because FoW is really only used to hide enemy units. This would partially defeat that point, but not terribly.