City terrain

[lurker]

I think this is a great idea, but in order to work conceptually, we would need something that looks different from apartment houses for "village" city terrain. They should look like garrisons, city halls or supply depots etc., so that it makes obvious sense why they provide a resource, while the other house-terrain do not.

That would in fact be better. But from a player's perspective I think it is more important that he can easily form a rule in his head as to which is which, even if it is not obvious why. So the city terrain could be a first step, and an additional set of houses which support the difference with their appearance can follow.

[AI]

Having just created the terrain (not committed yet), I can say that it doesn't even show an empty flagpole.
I would suggest showing a white flag, but that's side 8's color already.

[LordBob]

This is a great idea.
Implementation-wise, I'd stick to what Groovy proposes : use the existing "village" graphics for residential area terrain (consistent colours & scale, no flag) and create a set of unique buildings that the player will unmistakably identify as heal/income spots.

[doofus-01]

Lurker,

I just thought of something that may be tangential and possibly not historically accurate, but it would help make cities look more like cities and avoid some of the above issues: roads with curbs. Basically extend the ornate stone bridge texture onto flat terrain, keeping the edges straight rather than hexagon.

If that makes sense, do you think you could make a tile-able terrain that matches the bridge? I could work on the transitions & borders, if you don't want to. I ask because it would be more likely to match the bridge if the same person drew the bricks.

EDIT: The discussion of supply depots etc. may be going somewhere useful, but I can't shake the feeling that there is still the problem of a crappy little orc hut healing when a nice solid "residential" building doesn't. This will require a total overhaul of all villages. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, but let's realize what we are talking about.

[lurker]

This is a great idea.
Implementation-wise, I'd stick to what Groovy proposes : use the existing "village" graphics for residential area terrain (consistent colours & scale, no flag) and create a set of unique buildings that the player will unmistakably identify as heal/income spots.

This is easy to try. Could someone put together a city out of the current city houses and post a screenshot (I cannot ATM, have the wrong computer with me)? Let's then think of them as of normal terrain and see whether it feels right. For now I cannot help but think of the smaller scale as an asset, not a liability. Especially since it makes it possible to put more than one house on one tile which helps make them less special.
Btw even if we created new city "village" houses that would not mean the current ones must vanish. They could also be scaled down and put together in ensembles and used as the/an alternative "city" terrain. In fact, by scaling them I came to the factor 2/3 which seemed to be the sweet spot. (If so I would still suggest to tone the roofs down, but that's an aside).

Edit: Here is the picture

[lurker]

Lurker,

I just thought of something that may be tangential and possibly not historically accurate, but it would help make cities look more like cities and avoid some of the above issues: roads with curbs. Basically extend the ornate stone bridge texture onto flat terrain, keeping the edges straight rather than hexagon.

If that makes sense, do you think you could make a tile-able terrain that matches the bridge? I could work on the transitions & borders, if you don't want to. I ask because it would be more likely to match the bridge if the same person drew the bricks.

If you mean the plain stone bridge, sure, might look good. But the roads are not the problem that the cities currently have. The white cobbles work reasonably well, IMHO.

EDIT: The discussion of supply depots etc. may be going somewhere useful, but I can't shake the feeling that there is still the problem of a crappy little orc hut healing when a nice solid "residential" building doesn't. This will require a total overhaul of all villages. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, but let's realize what we are talking about.

I understand your position. The inconsistency can be talked over - I tried to do so re: Zookeeper, but it is there. In the end I simply think it is worth it - houses that heal are not so totally realistic a concept that we should have a bad conscience when stretching it. IMHO, once more

[LordBob]

Mmh...You do have a point. Now that I see your lattest picture, I'm inclined to say your first example was more convincing in that it displayed clustered buildings with simili-courtyards. Which is a hell of a lot more citylike than rows of individual houses.
So yes, your proposition of scaling down and rearranging existing buildings in small groups sounds like an excellent option.

Re: justification : I stand by Lurker. If push comes to shove, it can always be considered that not every house in a city has the kind of supply it takes to heal. A "healing" building symbolizes a spot that does, may it be a hospital, garrison or simply home to someone richer and/or more far-sighted than his neighbours.

[Sgt. Groovy]

I don't think it would be unrealistic at all for cities to have "strategically important locations" because that's what real cities have. The "village" terrain represents a location of concentrated human (elvish, dwarfish...) resources in relative to its surroundings. In rural areas they really would be villages, but in cities the resources are not evenly distributed either. Shops and warehouses have more supplies than average houses, banks, government buildings and rich houses have more money, etc.

EDIT: maybe the solution to the conceptual problem is to rename the "village" terrain into something else. Something that is the equivalent of a "stand" or a "base", but in non-military sense.

[Jetrel]

This is a great idea.
Implementation-wise, I'd stick to what Groovy proposes : use the existing "village" graphics for residential area terrain (consistent colours & scale, no flag) and create a set of unique buildings that the player will unmistakably identify as heal/income spots.

Perhaps these could look like military tower/keeps? Virtually all cultures have had them - simply as just freestanding towers, and we don't currently don't have freestanding towers in-game. Plus, these would work very, very well with castles, because it makes sense to have buildings like this inside of castles.



http://www.stronghold-knights.com/site/article190.html

[Boucman]

I personally think this is a case of gameplay trumping realism... if we have a way to do a city terrain that looks good, blends well, is clearly not a healing point and won't be mixed up with one... let's go for it

[batoonike]

You can't make houses that look like houses but don't look like houses*. Anything that does look like a house but isn't a "village" is extremely confusing.




*in common logic

[PeterPorty]

I have an idea... but it would kinda change a lot in the game... Anyways, we could change the current villages by keeps. Each keep gives you healing and money per turn, and for the additional money of the initial keep, we could just give the player -1 income on map start.

Just a weird idea coming from a weird person.

[doofus-01]

I'm not sure if I'm just being a pest, so I'll post just once more here. I'm not buying the rich man, hospital, garrison distinctions because of huts that heal. The idea could work within a city, but then it wouldn't jibe with the rest of the "Wesnoth world". Two more ideas I have, then I'm out.

1. The underground terrain doesn't perfectly fit with the aboveground, maybe cities could be a third "type". If that were done however, it would be nice to clearly show that the setting was different (different themes?). Making three themes (or however it's done) would be a project itself.

2. Sort of what Jetrel said, add towers and other non-house things. But make them the non-healing terrains. If there are enough outhouses, stables, lamps, and watch-towers, the city won't look sparse, even if there are not that many "villages".

[Sgt. Groovy]

Your second suggestion is probably the best one, because all it requires is making some new terrain graphics, which don't clash with any of the existing ones visually nor conceptually.

[lurker]

2. Sort of what Jetrel said, add towers and other non-house things. But make them the non-healing terrains. If there are enough outhouses, stables, lamps, and watch-towers, the city won't look sparse, even if there are not that many "villages".

That could work, but I cannot think of enough non-house things to make this work, because, three or four healing houses per city seems enough; you would need a lot of other stuff to fill the space.

Anyway, even if we are not decided yet, I have continued working on the terrain:

Greetings

Lurker