Questions of Death

[Jarkko]

Also, what about re-re-animating? Could there be a second undeath? What is the limit on reanimating a single soul?

There doesn't seem to be any precedent for it in canon. WCs are completely destroyed when they are re-killed, so there's nothing left to animate. When a ghost or skeleton is destroyed, I figure the tortured soul (or what's left of it) flees. When there is a soul or remaining bodily impulses, a mage might simply direct his minion to "go over there and kill that guy", and the minion decides the best way to get there (i.e. put right foot forward, put left foot forward, swing arm, etc.). Thus, to control a re-killed skeleton (no soul, no brain), a mage would have to direct its every move like a puppet instead of relying on basic commands.

I think that it could be possible, if the spell controlling an undead was purged in a way that a body and a soul is not harmed. The thing is that such an action is just - not sensible. They're "single-use weapons" anyways. I support the claim about WCs, but I think that skeletons and spectral animations could be re-animated and recalled.

After the killing blow a skeleton isn't destroyed, but shattered to pieces - thus if you just piece the skeleton back together (who knows what really happens during one turn) and recall it's soul, the result could be proficient. Same thing with spectres, only that it doesn't require the tedious task of puzzle-solving. I think, that the only problem is finding that specific ghost again.

[johndh]

After the killing blow a skeleton isn't destroyed, but shattered to pieces - thus if you just piece the skeleton back together (who knows what really happens during one turn) and recall it's soul, the result could be proficient. Same thing with spectres, only that it doesn't require the tedious task of puzzle-solving. I think, that the only problem is finding that specific ghost again.

That's a possibility, but maybe being killed a second time is just too much strain for the spirit to handle.

[bigkahuna]

That's a possibility, but maybe being killed a second time is just too much strain for the spirit to handle.

I wonder if a Lich could live a third time, since his soul was strong enough to forcibly put itself back in its own body.

But since I see it's now officially "on" I just wanted to let you know I coded the development version of the first scenario, finished up the full storyboard today and will be starting a development thread very, very soon

Curse you .

Ah well, as long as its good I don't mind.

[Jarkko]

I wonder if a Lich could live a third time, since his soul was strong enough to forcibly put itself back in its own body.

I don't see why not as long as it's body can be recovered and the soul discovered, however it might require the influence of another skilled necromancer to re-conjure a previously dead lich - unless the spectre of the Lich itself could uphold enough of its consciousness to perform the necessary rituals, which are seemingly quite complex.

On the other hand the external conjuration of a lich might not provide the best results - My theory is that to become a lich it is essential for the person himself to do his own transformation, because he "knows his soul" (perhaps on a sort of sub-conscious level) better, than any other person, thus only he bind the soul the best way and become undead and retain his full consciousness at the same time.

Summa summarum: Yes - but how much would it differ from conjuring an ordinary skeleton?

[Myrien]

I wonder if a Lich could live a third time, since his soul was strong enough to forcibly put itself back in its own body.

I don't see why not as long as it's body can be recovered and the soul discovered, however it might require the influence of another skilled necromancer to re-conjure a previously dead lich - unless the spectre of the Lich itself could uphold enough of its consciousness to perform the necessary rituals, which are seemingly quite complex.

On the other hand the external conjuration of a lich might not provide the best results - My theory is that to become a lich it is essential for the person himself to do his own transformation, because he "knows his soul" (perhaps on a sort of sub-conscious level) better, than any other person, thus only he bind the soul the best way and become undead and retain his full consciousness at the same time.

Summa summarum: Yes - but how much would it differ from conjuring an ordinary skeleton?

If one assumes that a lich can be made by exterior means (other necromancers) then there should be no limit to conquering death utterly, as sentient undead could be created easily by skilled necromancers (well, saying "easily" might not be appropriate - I mean, creation would be possible).
From this we could conclude that every necromancer who is not totally egocentric - and I will not assume that all are - could bring back his loved, ancestors, whoever he wants, with full sentience and a damaged body.

Though this seems like the purpose of necromancy - as described in the game - it failed. In my opinion, the lich ritual involves the binding of one's soul to this world, and this involves oneself so strongly that it should be very hard to perform on others, as you would need to have a lot of experience with maipulation of bodies and souls.

Another thought resulting from this:
Why should a soul be restricted to one body? Could a very skilled necromancer not cause his soul to part from his body and "posess" another body or soulless material? A lich's soul is independent from his/her body to the extent that the health of the body is no longer important. I see bodies only as dead material (which would be my version of the two-realm creation theory described in another thread) that can be brought to life by a soul. I think a necromancer skilled in manipulating his own soul and magic in general could, with some difficulty, perform a sort of soulshift.
However, it will be hard to practise magic on your own soul - what if something goes wrong?

This could be useful for many things - a lich with a very damaged body could search a new one, could even assume a form similar to living humanoids by using a fresh corpse etc.
Bodies only being the tool of a soul to inhabit this realm.

Morbidity!

Campaign idea reserved, now!

[Jarkko]

If one assumes that a lich can be made by exterior means (other necromancers) then there should be no limit to conquering death utterly, as sentient undead could be created easily by skilled necromancers (well, saying "easily" might not be appropriate - I mean, creation would be possible).

Could be one of the reasons why necromancy is so much frowned upon in Wesnoth – or maybe it is a thought, like ”He can thwart death and I can't – thus he's the bad guy.” Simple jealousness.

From this we could conclude that every necromancer who is not totally egocentric - and I will not assume that all are - could bring back his loved, ancestors, whoever he wants, with full sentience and a damaged body.

There's a canonical viewpoint supporting this claim. In DiD it was Malin Keshar's sole intent to protect his village from the orcs, yet he himself was demonized for practicing necromancy.

In The White Lich (which is non-canon), the protagonist formed up the entire concept of necromancy just to bring back his loved one.

Why should a soul be restricted to one body? Could a very skilled necromancer not cause his soul to part from his body and "posess" another body or soulless material?

I think a necromancer skilled in manipulating his own soul and magic in general could, with some difficulty, perform a sort of soulshift.
However, it will be hard to practise magic on your own soul - what if something goes wrong?

This could be useful for many things - a lich with a very damaged body could search a new one, could even assume a form similar to living humanoids by using a fresh corpse etc.
Bodies only being the tool of a soul to inhabit this realm.

Consider this: A lich is frequently just a skeleton with a lifelike sentience. A bare skeleton has no vocal cords – and yet they can speak normally. I believe, that a lich has to partially ”enter the mind” of the subject or subjects it wishes to interact with – personally I think that remote-controlling one's eardrums by magical means shouldn't be utterly difficult. In that level it makes sense.

However, when talking about a lich completely entering a mind of an other, living, sentient subject, the lich's soul might (and will) face severe resistance from the original soul inhabiting the subject. Such an utter, definite change most likely is unwanted especially if the subject is forced to such a transformation. Not to mention, that the lich has to kick the ”original owner” out as well. To me it sounds like it takes an undead superwargod to achieve such – but I don't think, it's impossible.

[bigkahuna]

Hmm... uberundeadwargod sounds like a good idea Now for the author to finish the White Lich... He takes months on each chapter lol.

Well, nothing is accepted as canonical until it is a mainline campaign or IfTU worthy, so someone needs to get to work

[Myrien]

Could be one of the reasons why necromancy is so much frowned upon in Wesnoth – or maybe it is a thought, like ”He can thwart death and I can't – thus he's the bad guy.” Simple jealousness.

I had always taken it as a "Help, it's unnatural, so it's evil" approach to necromancy - there would be more eagerness to learn necromancy that way, but it woud not be made punishable by execution, I think.

There's a canonical viewpoint supporting this claim. In DiD it was Malin Keshar's sole intent to protect his village from the orcs, yet he himself was demonized for practicing necromancy.

In The White Lich (which is non-canon), the protagonist formed up the entire concept of necromancy just to bring back his loved one.

I just considered necromancers as humans (or humanoid sentient creatures) like any others, and you named some examples. Exactly what I meant.

Consider this: A lich is frequently just a skeleton with a lifelike sentience. A bare skeleton has no vocal cords – and yet they can speak normally. I believe, that a lich has to partially ”enter the mind” of the subject or subjects it wishes to interact with – personally I think that remote-controlling one's eardrums by magical means shouldn't be utterly difficult. In that level it makes sense.

However, when talking about a lich completely entering a mind of an other, living, sentient subject, the lich's soul might (and will) face severe resistance from the original soul inhabiting the subject. Such an utter, definite change most likely is unwanted especially if the subject is forced to such a transformation. Not to mention, that the lich has to kick the ”original owner” out as well. To me it sounds like it takes an undead superwargod to achieve such – but I don't think, it's impossible.

He'd kill the person he wants to inhabit (probably by magic as to inflict less damage on the body). In my opinion, the soul would leave the body after death; if not, more magic would be needed to tear soul from body, but this shouldn't be necessary, I think.

A necromancer who could make his soul posses other lifeless material - stone, water, whatever - would be interesting as well, but imagine trying to control that. I am also not sure if it would be possible to animate this with a human soul.

[johndh]

However, when talking about a lich completely entering a mind of an other, living, sentient subject, the lich's soul might (and will) face severe resistance from the original soul inhabiting the subject. Such an utter, definite change most likely is unwanted especially if the subject is forced to such a transformation. Not to mention, that the lich has to kick the ”original owner” out as well. To me it sounds like it takes an undead superwargod to achieve such – but I don't think, it's impossible.

I'm inclined to agree. The fact that they can command lesser creatures like bats suggests and mindless undead suggests to me a certain level of psychic mind-control. This would be more difficult for a more intelligent animal like a pig, and very difficult indeed for a humanoid.

[Myrien]

I meant a sort of control over a body by taking it over with one's soul, not controlling the mind of another. By killing or violently tearing the soul from another's body, a life- and soulless corpse. Then, he could give up his current body - probably by a ritual similar to that of transformation to a lich - and inhabit the corpse with his own soul. For this, a precondition would be that the soul is not bound to one body.
In my opinion, this would work if we assume the creation process described in another thread, with two realms and spirits inhabiting the material in the other world.

[johndh]

I meant a sort of control over a body by taking it over with one's soul, not controlling the mind of another. By killing or violently tearing the soul from another's body, a life- and soulless corpse. Then, he could give up his current body - probably by a ritual similar to that of transformation to a lich - and inhabit the corpse with his own soul. For this, a precondition would be that the soul is not bound to one body.

Well, it's been discussed in the ancient lich thread that powerful liches often customize their bodies with bones of other creatures and assorted other accessories, so at that point the body is just a plaything of the mind. Somebody was also drawing a portrait of a (seemingly) spectral lich who had apparently given up the body entirely. Given all this, I think there would be nothing at all stopping a powerful lich from taking over a body that has had the soul and life stripped out of it -- it's just matter for the mage's mind and spirit to inhabit. I think the soul is not bound to the body per se, but I think they have a strong affinity for the form they've occupied for so long. To continue with the higher/lower soul idea, I'd say that the higher soul has a very strong will of its own (so it's free to leave upon death), while the lower soul does not (so it tends to stick around). This is why any average Joe with a little bit of magical knowledge can summon a skeleton, dominate a ghoul or bat, or blast a ghost into oblivion, but becoming a lich is a major endeavor even for a willing subject because the mage has to bind his own higher soul to the world of the living.

[bigkahuna]

Well, it's been discussed in the ancient lich thread that powerful liches often customize their bodies with bones of other creatures and assorted other accessories, so at that point the body is just a plaything of the mind.

Correct. This has become canonical, as the portrait of Jevyan in 1.9 RoW is him with horns, a drake tail, and a jar of eyeballs... I'm sure that qualifies him as having a custom body

If a lich can animate his own body and enter into any body he wishes, I'm sure he could move other souls around like he does his own. But there are obviously limitations, or everyone in Wesnoth would be possessed by some macho lich.

[Myrien]

I'm sure he could move other souls around like he does his own. But there are obviously limitations, or everyone in Wesnoth would be possessed by some macho lich.

I think that that would be extremely hard; in the theory of a lich taking over bodies, he would (in my opinion) kill his victim, thus seperating body and soul, and then inhabit the soulless body. But to actually control a complex soul of a sentient creature that is resisting the attempt to take it over? This would be extremely hard; and, in addition, the necromancer would have to be strong in mental magic as well as in necromancy, as he would have to enter the mind first. If he changes his own body, he will not defend himself against his own magic, and if he takes over a dead body, no soul remains to resist; this is different here.

[Noitakuningas]

I've always thought the undead work like this:
(This is just my opinion!)

A necromancer is practically nothing more than a Mage who animates inanimate objects, but have realized that animating dead bodies is much easier and efficient than, say, animating a piece of iron to become a golem. They cast spells upon bodies that reboot the muscles and the brain of the target, making it move through magical intervention. For skeletons and such, the magic seeps directly into their bones, making muscles and sinew useless. Sometimes this also awakens some fragment of conscience or "soul", as is the case with skeletons. They remember small glimpses of their life, but not enough to think or rebel. Perhaps they live in the past, thinking they are still alive, or they are just lost in a dream, unable to wake up.

Ghosts are manifestations of summoned spirits, or those of the deceased that were reluctant to pass on for some reason. With time and perhaps magical aid, they can regain some semblance of matter, appearing as apparitions instead of just poltergeists.

Death Knights are people who simply refused to die and rest. Their pride, malevolence or whatever reason made them crawl back to life from the lowest reaches of Hell to do battle once again.

Liches are like other undead, save for the fact that they entrap their soul, binding it to their body before it escapes into the afterlife, this way keeping their will and mind intact, while their body dies.


EDIT: In the case of bats and ghouls, perhaps feeding on the blood and flesh of the living causes you to enter a "living death"-like state, where you are neither undead nor actually alive?