Fate of a Princess

[SkyOne]

4. How difficult did you find the scenario or the campaign? (1-10)

for an intended intermediate level campaign, rather hard; say 8
In my opinion, FoaP tends to be an expert-level campaign (compare especially UtBS), partly for its innovations on unit types/races, gameplay, etc, partly for its tactical challenges, esp in the first part.
(possibly more on this topic in a separate post)

Thank you. Good to know it.
From my point of view (during the testings), this campaign is a bit difficult as an intermediate level, but not difficult enough as an expert level. So this comment is helpful to make a decision.

6. What aspect of the campaign needs the most work? (dialog, unit images, etc.)

Dialog, as you know . The content (elements of the tale) is good, potentially very good. Only needs correction and style; also some more clarity, coherence, and connections between both parts, too (more on this later as well).
I would gladly start or participate to a french translation, if you like.

Merci beaucoup.
As I said (did I?), We-all (mich, Simons Mith, and I) have been working on for the new edition which includes four more scenarios to fill up the transition between Part One and Two. All characters who have not appeared in the game (but appeared in the dialogues) such as Gulcyn the Wizard, Elen-Garil, Queen Melindë, etc..., will show on the game in the new edition. Also, many dialogues will be replaced in it.

If you can translate after publishing the new edition, we will appreciate it so much. We know that many French players enjoy playing this campaign, so translating it in French will make them more fun. We-all hope to create a good contribution in this community, so you are very welcome to join the project.

[spir]

for an intended intermediate level campaign, rather hard; say 8
In my opinion, FoaP tends to be an expert-level campaign (compare especially UtBS), partly for its innovations on unit types/races, gameplay, etc, partly for its tactical challenges, esp in the first part.
(possibly more on this topic in a separate post)

Thank you. Good to know it.
From my point of view (during the testings), this campaign is a bit difficult as an intermediate level, but not difficult enough as an expert level. So this comment is helpful to make a decision.

I think there is an issue in Wesnoth on this point. Actually, campaign types (novice, normal, expert) and player-chosen difficulty level conflict: they both tell about difficulty, in fact. But one could well make a very hard level on a novice campaign, no? Or conversely make a very easy level on an expert campaign.
I guess an interesting challenge would be separate difficulty level from campaign "targets", as much as possible. For instance, use campaign targets to define the expected public and/or the actual intent of the author:
* novice --> pedagogy (teaches gameplay, game rules, unit types, tactics, tricks... more or less implicitely)
* companion --> standard gameplay (in all senses of "standard", meaning mostly no innovation)
* master --> innovation (exploration of variants of unit types, game rules, gameplay, world, etc)
Then, in a distinct dimension, difficulty allows making more or less easy / hard levels for every campaign. Indeed, campaign targets still indirectly tell about difficulty (novice ones tend to be easier, master ones tend to be harder); but they basically tell about another aspect of the campaign.

From this point of view, FoaP really lends toward a "master" level (like UtBS). Also, esp in the first part, it is rather challenging tactically. I thus think you should target the expert level.

[spir]

for an intended intermediate level campaign, rather hard; say 8
In my opinion, FoaP tends to be an expert-level campaign (compare especially UtBS), partly for its innovations on unit types/races, gameplay, etc, partly for its tactical challenges, esp in the first part.
(possibly more on this topic in a separate post)

Thank you. Good to know it.
From my point of view (during the testings), this campaign is a bit difficult as an intermediate level, but not difficult enough as an expert level. So this comment is helpful to make a decision.

I think there is an issue in Wesnoth on this point. Actually, campaign types (novice, normal, expert) and player-chosen difficulty level conflict: they both tell about difficulty, in fact. But one could well make a very hard level on a novice campaign, no? Or conversely make a very easy level on an expert campaign.
I guess an interesting challenge would be separate difficulty level from campaign "targets", as much as possible. For instance, use campaign targets to define the expected public and/or the actual intent of the author:
* novice --> pedagogy (teaches gameplay, game rules, unit types, tactics, tricks... more or less implicitely)
* companion --> standard gameplay (in all senses of "standard", meaning mostly no innovation)
* master --> innovation (exploration of variants of unit types, game rules, gameplay, world, etc)
Then, in a distinct dimension, difficulty allows making more or less easy / hard levels for every campaign. Indeed, campaign targets still indirectly tell about difficulty (novice ones tend to be easier, master ones tend to be harder); but they basically tell about another aspect of the campaign.

From this point of view, FoaP really lends toward a "master" level (like UtBS). Also, esp in the first part, it is rather challenging tactically. I thus think you should target the expert level.

[EDIT: now, I am aware this is a very personal point of view.]

[spir]

As I said (did I?), We-all (mich, Simons Mith, and I) have been working on for the new edition which includes four more scenarios to fill up the transition between Part One and Two. All characters who have not appeared in the game (but appeared in the dialogues) such as Gulcyn the Wizard, Elen-Garil, Queen Melindë, etc..., will show on the game in the new edition. Also, many dialogues will be replaced in it.

I like very much the story of FoaP.
Like many players said, I also think there is an issue in the relation between parts 1 & 2 (by the way, I think they should have a name, possibly single-word like "exodus" & "prophecy").

I do not agree on the point there should be a transition phase or part. It is fully allright for the two parts to happen in different times, with different characters, situations, etc. The actual point is, for me: how/why is part 1 an introduction to part 2? how/why is part 2 a follow-up of part 1?
In other word, what I miss is rather a much stronger "connexion" between both parts, from the *tale* point of view; not a "transition". Hope I'm clear .

The only logical connexion I can see is the saurian prophecy (that, if ever humans migrate so far north, something terrible will happen). There are probably a few more I overlook, but there are not enough as player feedback tells. I would enjoy some more "tale bridges". Below some ideas:
* Why is it important that Baldres's folk come from wesnoth?
* What is this sword thingy in part 2?
* How come elves and dwarves fight side by side (against humans travelling north)?
* What's this saurian prophecy? ...
* ... and the Drake alchemist?

Indeed, some connexion points may be introduced in the transition part you're presently writing. But I think more connexions should lie in the parts that already exist.
* Why does Baldres's folk choose this direction (north) / area / spot to settle?
* How did Baldres die? What causes & consequences?
* How come human and elven folks became friendly to each other (while humans are firstly invaders)?

[Again, I'm aware this is a very personal point of view.]

[
EDIT:
-1- When a designed thing is basically bad, it's hard to criticize, especially constructively; because all one gets is mess, and would rather start from scratch. When it's already good enough, it often gets more critics, and better ones. Please take mine as a sign I find your work very good.
-2- Campaign levels, from the tale point of view: (0) no real tale, rather pretext for a series of battles (1) some tale, missing story teller talent (2) good tale, simplicity or clarity or consistency issues (3) great tale, could be a story on its own.
A very hard judgement of mine: most campaigns are level 0 or 1 (even mainline ones). As of now, I put FoaP in box 2; I wish it in box 3. (SotBE, and the campaign "Swamplings", by boru, could also become level 3.) From the campaigns I know, UtBS only is level 3.
]

[dinomaa]

Really enjoyed FOAP probably my favourite campaign ever - but also the only one I can't finish. Playing on medium - level is called fate of a princess (I think) - start off with a handfull of characters grab some holy water and head into a dungeon. For ages I just couldn't progress past the waves of undead - just too many of them when I finally captured the first castle and made some progress I'd run out of turns.

Anyhow did figure that out but now I'm trying to get what looks like the last bad guy who jumps to a second castle surrounded by water. Scenerio object is just to attack him with one of my characters but she can not get to him and I can not get him to leave the castle. He just swots the few character types that can get there for fun. Any help please...

[SkyOne]

Really enjoyed FOAP probably my favourite campaign ever - but also the only one I can't finish. Playing on medium - level is called fate of a princess (I think) - start off with a handfull of characters grab some holy water and head into a dungeon. For ages I just couldn't progress past the waves of undead - just too many of them when I finally captured the first castle and made some progress I'd run out of turns.

Anyhow did figure that out but now I'm trying to get what looks like the last bad guy who jumps to a second castle surrounded by water. Scenerio object is just to attack him with one of my characters but she can not get to him and I can not get him to leave the castle. He just swots the few character types that can get there for fun. Any help please...

Good and thank you so much. You posted at very right time for me tonight.
As a hint, checking what your Royal Sorceress can do will make you finish the campaign as well. Or there are more tips on the previous page on this thread.


To spir:
Thank you so much for your attention on FoaP. We appreciate your comments.
We are still working on the new edition, but it will be on the server shortly.

[dinomaa]

Cheers for the slightly cryptic help - going to have another crack at it today. Also where's this part 2 I've been reading about?

[SkyOne]

Cheers for the slightly cryptic help - going to have another crack at it today.

Here is more tips:

Spoiler:

sending one of units who can across the small river to the west before attacking Gulder first time will make you easier to end up the scenario.

The best way is to recruit one Drake Glider on Dragon Cave scenario, then keep him until the end to use at this particular moment, because Drake Glider's movement is better than any other units. Of course, if he is on his level=2 or 3, it is even better.

Also where's this part 2 I've been reading about?

Hmmm... I am not exactly sure what you are asking here. You mean how I have divided all scenarios as the Part One and Two? Maybe, something else, but:
at the beginning to 8th scenario, Capturing Dorest, on the current edition on the server is the Part One and the rest, starting with Broken Treaty scenario, is the Part Two. The Part One will be longer (four more scenarios) on the next edition that we are working on, though. We haven't spread the game as Part One and Two. So the scenario that you are playing currently is the final Battle of the Part Two.

If you are asking something else, please post again. I am happy to answer it.
Thank you for playing.

[Arawn]

Ok, I'm still finishing up, but this is some general stuff (actual bugs).

One the scenario in the dragon's lair, how exactly do we deal with the mermen we encounter? I kept tying to sneak past them with a unit, grab a village, and then teleport Ameck to the village, and get her to walk in the dragon's lair. The problem was that they kept attacking me and were apparently essential. The unit I snuck in with would take out about 30% of their HP, and then Ameck would get all three shots for the death blow, ending the mission. It took quite a few reloads to get her to miss. The point is: is there a way to make them friendly or not have to deal with them?

Huh... actually, that's about it for the bugs. I'll post something more extensive once I finish. Awesome so far.

[Arawn]

1. What version of Battle for Wesnoth did you play?
1.8.5
2. What version of Fate of a Princess (or the scenario) did you play?
Not sure. Whichever one was available on the add-ons.
3. What difficulty level did you select to play the campaign? (easy/normal/hard)
Easy
4. How difficult did you find the scenario or the campaign? (1-10)
4 - a lot of the units had instant-kill attacks. The snow-shaman line for instance.
5. How clear did you find the objectives on the scenario or the campaign? (1-10)
10
6. What aspect of the campaign needs the most work? (dialog, unit images, etc.)
images, but they're good as is.
7. Which part of the campaign did you like? (part-1/part-2)
part 2
8. How do you like the story on this campaign? (1-10)
Fantastic. Especially the way you worked the Lich-Lord into the end.
9. Do you have any additional comments?
Great sprites, most notably the ice sorceress and ice fairy, and Saurian guard line. Fantastic campaign. I'm not sure I played it right though. Reading a few posts, it seems some people were recruiting Drake Gliders? I never did this. I did however love the Adherent units, which could advance to thieves, fencers, and bowmen. This is one of the first times I have been able to make use of fencers, they need more love. The new bowmen units were fantastic too. The only unit I didn't like was the southern orc raider (or whatever it was called - the level 1 unit with the club); it looked like Yogi bear with a club. Also, why don't we have the option of advancing the drake fighter to a sword drake? That was one of the best parts of Brave Wings. Also, can we recruit more drakes in general? Just fighters seems a little weak. And, just as a question (I wasn't paying attention here), where did my white mage go? Those last few criticisms are really minor though; this was the second-best campaign ever (After Brave Wings), and only because I prefer drakes.
10. What was your impression when you finished the campaign? (achievement, weariness, sadness, etc.)
Loved it. Achievement, mostly.

[SkyOne]

Arawn, sorry for delaying to reply. I was so busy during the Christmas time to the New Year time.
These are probably too late for you, but I response them.

One the scenario in the dragon's lair, how exactly do we deal with the mermen we encounter? I kept tying to sneak past them with a unit, grab a village, and then teleport Ameck to the village, and get her to walk in the dragon's lair. The problem was that they kept attacking me and were apparently essential. The unit I snuck in with would take out about 30% of their HP, and then Ameck would get all three shots for the death blow, ending the mission. It took quite a few reloads to get her to miss. The point is: is there a way to make them friendly or not have to deal with them?

Well, there is not a way to make them friendly on the current edition, but you do not really have to defeat their leader on the scenario. The best way is to step on the north rune sign after taking a key, then defeat the Sea Serpent leader. After that you can send some drakes and Ameck from the behind of the merman leader to defeat his side if you like. Of course, you need some defensive units his front also to destroy him in the case.

I played it right though. Reading a few posts, it seems some people were recruiting Drake Gliders?

Well, yeah, recruiting Glider makes a bit easier at the last battle on scenario 25. But as long as you have an unit who can cross the deep water terrains, it won't be a problem.

I did however love the Adherent units, which could advance to thieves, fencers, and bowmen. This is one of the first times I have been able to make use of fencers, they need more love. The new bowmen units were fantastic too.

Thank you so much. I am actually so glad to hear it because it was a tough choice. We were not able to make all human units so strong on the part two because they will be gone on scenario 22. What we had to do was to let the players recruit them less than none-human units. However, they had to be attractive enough to enjoy the game, so the Thief and Fencer line units were the only choice finally.

The only unit I didn't like was the southern orc raider (or whatever it was called - the level 1 unit with the club); it looked like Yogi bear with a club.

Haha, Yeah, it is.
It is actually one of the newest unit images in this campaign, so still needs to be polished up. But I am not an artist (and not even a programmer), so the work will be limited.

Also, why don't we have the option of advancing the drake fighter to a sword drake? That was one of the best parts of Brave Wings.

Actually, it does. It just does not show at "advances to" on the unit profile (the same thing as Saurian Guard from Skirmisher and Horse Archer from Cavalryman). They will show on the unit profile on the next edition, though, because Elvish_Hunter told me a better way.
I actually created the unit for this campaign originally to let him available to pick up the flame sword. (a chaotic drake + the flame sword is a kind of cool. )

Also, can we recruit more drakes in general? Just fighters seems a little weak.

Ah.., yes, a bit weak. But they are Turuk's followers, so recruiting all drakes is only available when Drake Lord is in side=1 (scenario 22 and 22b).

And, just as a question (I wasn't paying attention here), where did my white mage go?

He went to capture Prestim with the Dragon and all human units because protecting the city was needed from the orcs after capturing it.
If you read the dialogue as well at the end of scenario 22, Dragon Cave, it is explained. Additionally, playing scenario 22b, The Battle at Prestim, is the final battle for all human units in side=1. Simons Mith wrote good paragraphs regarding to what is going on there at the end of the scenario.

Those last few criticisms are really minor though; this was the second-best campaign ever (After Brave Wings), and only because I prefer drakes.

Thank you so much.
I just have a little plan to create another one. A new monster guy on Brave Wings might be the game leader. He is like a wingless drake. I hope that you will like it too.


Have a good one, Arawn

[Arawn]

I just have a little plan to create another one. A new monster guy on Brave Wings might be the game leader. He is like a wingless drake. I hope that you will like it too.

Aw, no worries about the delay. I was finished with the campaign so it wasn't a big deal. Great ending. And I think splitting it into two parts helped keep the story from getting stale. One of my biggest criticisms of Legend of Wesmere and the like is that after a while, it get's boring. (No offense to anyone reading this who likes LoW) And good to know about the new campaign you're working on, I'll look forward to that. You're a really nice person in your comments too.

[Akkarin345]

1. What version of Battle for Wesnoth did you play?

1.8.5

2. What version of Fate of a Princess (or the scenario) did you play?

0.8.5

3. What difficulty level did you select to play the campaign? (easy/normal/hard)

Normal

4. How difficult did you find the scenario or the campaign? (1-10)

Depends on the scenario, i find the campaign was challenging at times mainly because you made a lot of the leaders have a massive income meaning they could always recuite every turn. Although this is a great idea and works really well sometimes, in other times like caves it is a real pain if you have a select number of high levels or end up in a bottle neck near a leader and they are constantly recuiting. Espeically in the last level.
So at times 7 but others 9.

5. How clear did you find the objectives on the scenario or the campaign? (1-10)

9, as far as i can remember they were all very clear except the 'pick up' objectives in dialogue scenarios, as the first time i got this choice there were two items, and seeing as one was the victory condition, i picked up the opposite one but this ended up being what triggered the scenario to finish, only a small thing that was easily solved but it was misleading, maybe make the victory conditions to pick up both?

6. What aspect of the campaign needs the most work? (dialog, unit images, etc.)

Various little bits. On the whole the campaign is really good and i enjoyed it a lot. However, Dorest seems way too under built for a city. Espeically when you go back in part 2 and it seems like it hasn't changed at all, and it is basically a lot of sand and gravel...
In the scenario with the diary, i picked up the diary and they said this would be useful later but i never saw a part it was used it, or did it dictate a scenario i went to afterwards?

7. Which part of the campaign did you like? (part-1/part-2)

I loved the special units, for example you made Turuk a slightly better version of the initial unit and did this with a lot of other units too. I also liked the AMLA options you put in, but i was suprised there weren't some for the later units that joined you, Alingwen.
The story is good and the change in perspective was a nice difference between the parts.

8. How do you like the story on this campaign? (1-10)

9, very intresting, the story was engaging all the way through and the change in parts kept it fresh and gripping.

9. Do you have any additional comments?

Great campaign and with a few changes i think it would be, imo, one of the best add on campaigns.

10. What was your impression when you finished the campaign? (achievement, weariness, sadness, etc.)

I had to use debug mode. I found it impossible on the last scenario to fight the massive amount of undead that 2 leaders threw at you after you opened the wall. The ending bit of the dialogue in this scenario felt too quick, not enough time for sadness,imo.

[SkyOne]

And good to know about the new campaign you're working on, I'll look forward to that.

I probably said it too early because it still takes a while. But yes, it has been slowly developed.

You're a really nice person in your comments too.

Thank you. I might be nice because you are nice.

5. How clear did you find the objectives on the scenario or the campaign? (1-10)

9, as far as i can remember they were all very clear except the 'pick up' objectives in dialogue scenarios, as the first time i got this choice there were two items, and seeing as one was the victory condition, i picked up the opposite one but this ended up being what triggered the scenario to finish, only a small thing that was easily solved but it was misleading, maybe make the victory conditions to pick up both?

Aaa... That is right. (you mean Drake Lord scenario, right?) The co-author, Simons Mith, has mentioned it before. As you said, it is not a big problem if players read objectives as well. But nothing goes to a worse even fixing it. Making the victory condition to pick up both of them is a good idea. It is going to be fixed on the next edition. Thank you so much.

6. What aspect of the campaign needs the most work? (dialog, unit images, etc.)

Various little bits. On the whole the campaign is really good and i enjoyed it a lot. However, Dorest seems way too under built for a city. Espeically when you go back in part 2 and it seems like it hasn't changed at all, and it is basically a lot of sand and gravel...

Ooo. A good point. You are right.
In fact, Dorest in part 2 was written first, and I did not plan to create previous Dorest (approximately 35 years ago) at that time on scenario 8 and 9, which has been added lately on the campaign.

A problem was that I had designed a kind of un-organized Dorest on part 2 because undead (Gulder) controls the city at the time. Then I had to draw the less organized city than one in part-2 for the part-1 because of the time-difference. So the solution is to make Dorest in part 2 more sophisticated. I (or mich) will work on it. Thank you.

In the scenario with the diary, i picked up the diary and they said this would be useful later but i never saw a part it was used it, or did it dictate a scenario i went to afterwards?

It sounds like useful later, but the diary was needed to let players know the existence of Gulcyn the Wizard (who is him as such) in the game, especially until version 0.7.9. Gulcyn just has appeared on the map since version 0.8.3. So the diary just means it. But it is also a good point. We should make the part better. Thank you.

7. Which part of the campaign did you like? (part-1/part-2)

I loved the special units, for example you made Turuk a slightly better version of the initial unit and did this with a lot of other units too. I also liked the AMLA options you put in, but i was suprised there weren't some for the later units that joined you, Alingwen. The story is good and the change in perspective was a nice difference between the parts.

Thank you.
Those would be needed not to make players bored in the long campaign, and to tell the story as well. I am glad to hear that they work.

8. How do you like the story on this campaign? (1-10)

9, very intresting, the story was engaging all the way through and the change in parts kept it fresh and gripping.

9. Do you have any additional comments?

Great campaign and with a few changes i think it would be, imo, one of the best add on campaigns.

I (probably mich and Simons Mith, also) am really glad to hear it.
Thank you so much.

10. What was your impression when you finished the campaign? (achievement, weariness, sadness, etc.)

I had to use debug mode. I found it impossible on the last scenario to fight the massive amount of undead that 2 leaders threw at you after you opened the wall.

That part is probably the hardest to play in the entire campaign, so it is possible to happen. Actually, there is a little trick at the part:

Spoiler:

the last two readers start recruiting units when the first cave-wall-phantom gets killed. So the best strategy at the part is to be ready the majority of your best units for the next battle over the walls as soon as defeating the first phantom. Recruiting some Dwarvish Scouts on the second keep to sacrifice is also effective at the part.

The ending bit of the dialogue in this scenario felt too quick, not enough time for sadness,imo.

This is also a good point. Thank you.
We have a plan to modify the ending (not in the epilogue), but never imagined the quickness as a reason to modify. You are probably right. Now, I should think..., and discuss with the co-workers about it because the ending is the most important part in the entire campaign. (well, the ending is usually the most important part in any stories.)


We really appreciate your nice and very clear feedback. It will be definitely helpful for the development. If you find anything else even small ones, please feel free to post either here and one on Scenario & Campaign Development Forum.
Thank you so much, Akkarin345.

[Akkarin345]

I had to use debug mode. I found it impossible on the last scenario to fight the massive amount of undead that 2 leaders threw at you after you opened the wall.

That part is probably the hardest to play in the entire campaign, so it is possible to happen. Actually, there is a little trick at the part:

Spoiler:

the last two readers start recruiting units when the first cave-wall-phantom gets killed. So the best strategy at the part is to be ready the majority of your best units for the next battle over the walls as soon as defeating the first phantom. Recruiting some Dwarvish Scouts on the second keep to sacrifice is also effective at the part.

The ending bit of the dialogue in this scenario felt too quick, not enough time for sadness,imo.

This is also a good point. Thank you.
We have a plan to modify the ending (not in the epilogue), but never imagined the quickness as a reason to modify. You are probably right. Now, I should think..., and discuss with the co-workers about it because the ending is the most important part in the entire campaign. (well, the ending is usually the most important part in any stories.)


We really appreciate your nice and very clear feedback. It will be definitely helpful for the development. If you find anything else even small ones, please feel free to post either here and one on Scenario & Campaign Development Forum.
Thank you so much, Akkarin345.

Ah well, i am looking foward to playing future versions!

Spoiler:

I'll have a go with what you suggested but i found a mixed problem. The phantoms are quite strong and i had to move quite a few of my units over to where they are, as a couple of units would have been totally destroyed with the backstab. After this i found i had to wait for my other units to come back before i could fight the undead and i found it hard to combat all of the undead; espeically seeing as you need high level shamans or dwarves to deal with them effectivly.
Although i don't know what the ending of that scenario is like without debug, i would have also found it hard to get Alingwen over to attack the leader. I used her teleport ability to get there but i could imagine that there would have been a lot of undead to face that the leader summons after you first attack him.