Movies discussion

[Gambit]

Edit: Fridge logic. Censoring d i c k by replacing it with ass doesn't make a whit of sense, since they're considered equally offensive. What gives?

Does this forum software keep filtering the posts until they're acceptable? If so, perhaps that was like macros or functions. You only have to change the end word in one place.

[Sapient]

I saw Inception at a drive-in last Saturday. It was well worth the admission and I may even get it on DVD when it comes out. However, the only thing that bugged me was I noticed some inconsistencies in the rules they established, for example the rules about "kicking" out of dreams. If you're going to make people keep track of an elaborate rule system just to understand the plot, then you should IMO at least be consistent about it. I won't give anything away to avoid revealing plot details, though. I highly recommend seeing it for yourself, if you consider yourself someone who appreciates science fiction in the slightest.

[HomerJ]

I saw Inception at a drive-in last Saturday. It was well worth the admission and I may even get it on DVD when it comes out. However, the only thing that bugged me was I noticed some inconsistencies in the rules they established, for example the rules about "kicking" out of dreams. If you're going to make people keep track of an elaborate rule system just to understand the plot, then you should IMO at least be consistent about it. I won't give anything away to avoid revealing plot details, though. I highly recommend seeing it for yourself, if you consider yourself someone who appreciates science fiction in the slightest.

Wait a second... what do you mean by that...there are still drive-ins?


Greetz
HomerJ

[Speedbrain]

Wait a second... what do you mean by that...there are still drive-ins?

There is one here in the metro Salt Lake City area that I know of. It has 8 or 10 screens and has a lot of volume on summer weekends. Not sure about other times. I think they are still around in part because you get to see 2 movies. They play one after the other.

[Sgt. Groovy]

The idea of a drive-in cracks me up. Then don't even bother to build a theater, but make you watch the movie in the fricking parking lot.

[Hulavuta]

I'm guessing they're just up for the nostalgia? Same as Automats.

But the concept of watching a movie in a car is pretty cool. That way, you can lean back, talk, make out, keep stuff in the backseat, etc.

[Maiklas3000]

Because you guys are a smart crowd, I was hoping to discuss Inception with you. I was thinking of starting a thread "Inception (spoilers)", but I guess the discussion really belongs here, even if it isn't everyone's favorite movie. I'll use spoiler tags.

MAJOR SPOILERS below.

Spoiler:

Was the ending of Inception real or in dreamland?

The most naive viewers, like maybe young kids, will see it as a happy ending and reality.

The next least naive will see the top spinning and think it's either a dream or real (given the wobble) or ambiguous.

The next are the folks who think they got it. They will have either noticed, or more likely read on the Internet, that the clothes of the children were deliberately changed for the last scene and that his wedding ring is absent there and in the "real" scenes, but present in the dreams, and possibly other such details. They conclude it was reality.

And that's where it ends. Or does it? I read a blog comment where someone had the idea that Mal might not be dead, and then it hit me. The #1 rule of the dreamers is to have a talisman, so that you know whether you are dreaming. This talisman must not have been examined by others, so that no one can duplicate the behavior of your talisman in a dream. The film drilled this into us. Cobb's talisman was Mal's. This means Cobb broke the #1 rule of the dreamers. Since Mal originated the idea of a talisman, I doubt Cobb even had a talisman before that. That means Cobb cannot be sure that Mal died in the first place. His whole concept of "what is reality" rests on that talisman. Therefore, the ending can at "best" be ambiguous; any evidence you think of can only be used to prove it was a dream; evidence cannot confirm that it was reality, for reality rests on a talisman.

Consider that when a dreamer's subconscious recognizes the alien nature of "reality", its NPC's turn hostile and attack. Could dream-Mal be the security force for Cobb's dreams? When Cobb described Mal, he used only the most glowing superlatives. It was over the top, a bit unbelievable. And this is in sharp contrast to Mal's behavior in the dreams. She's evil. When she acts nice, it's only because she's being manipulative. She's crazy. She tries to sabotage his efforts. Could dream-Mal be Cobb's subconscious saying, "No, no, no. Mal incepted in you the idea that she was the perfect wife. In fact, she was a crazy b*tch, like this, see?! Danger, Will Robinson, danger! What you think is reality is actually an evil plot by Mal to lock you in la-la-land, so I'm going to put a stop to it right now!"

Think about Mal's suicide scene, which bugged me from the start. It doesn't make sense if it's reality. The hotel room is a mess as if there were a struggle. She jumps from the other side of the street. If she's trying to frame him for murder, it's not going to work, except in a dream world. Any witness could see where she jumped from. Any forensics expert, or probably even any cop, can see from the blood splatter pattern and position of the body that she didn't jump from the hotel room where Cobb was. (Didn't she even kinda drop straight down?) So then why was Cobb on the run from the law? Inconsistencies like this happen all the time in dreams, but not in reality.

Another thing that doesn't make sense if it's reality is that Cobb hasn't seen his kids in a long time, because he can't visit them. So, why can't they visit him?! Based on this discrepency, I saw a review on IMDB suggesting that the filmmaker is an idiot, but just maybe the filmmaker is an evil genius instead.

As for why Mal would want to lock Cobb in la-la-land, I again suggest that Cobb's subconscious may know the answer: dream-Mal could have been Cobb's subconscious trying to say that Mal really was - er, is - evil, sadistic, and crazy.

What do you think? I know I can sometimes overestimate the intelligence of the filmmaker by mistaking blunders for clues. And I also know that I haven't dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's in the theory. There could be inconsistencies and problems in what I've proposed, but I would still argue that the lack of a dependable talisman means you can't say the ending is real.

[wayfarer]

Bubba Ho-tep


Trash at it's best but still I can appreciate the fine tone and humour.

[Hulavuta]

Maiklas: I think that maybe Mal thrashed the room to make it LOOK like it was a struggle, to further add proof to her claim that Cobb is trying to kill her. They were pretty high up, so witnesses probably didn't have an excellent view. Cobb was trying to reach her anyway, so it might look like it.

If the top DOES get all screwy because of its past ownership, that might explain the hole at the end where Cobb could simply realize he was dreaming because it didn't stop. He has to see it eventually right? Eventually it's going to keep spinning past the normal time.


EDIT: I also think it's both. Any inconsistency can easily make sense just by adding "this part was a dream" Noland probably knew that there obviously would be holes and therefore found a way to cover any mistakes.

[Maiklas3000]

Replying to Hulavuta about Inception...

Spoiler:

Maiklas: I think that maybe Mal thrashed the room to make it LOOK like it was a struggle, to further add proof to her claim that Cobb is trying to kill her. They were pretty high up, so witnesses probably didn't have an excellent view. Cobb was trying to reach her anyway, so it might look like it.

Yes, Mal trashed the room to frame Cobb or to seem like she was trying to frame Cobb. My objections boil down to that when Mal jumps, she is across the street. Cobb wasn't trying to reach her out on the ledge from across the street. I can't find a good screenshot of this, but maybe this will help:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-T0AhPJJrK8/T ... on+mal.jpg

If the top DOES get all screwy because of its past ownership, that might explain the hole at the end where Cobb could simply realize he was dreaming because it didn't stop. He has to see it eventually right? Eventually it's going to keep spinning past the normal time.

EDIT: I also think it's both. Any inconsistency can easily make sense just by adding "this part was a dream" Noland probably knew that there obviously would be holes and therefore found a way to cover any mistakes.

Cobb tells us that ideas are like viruses and that being able to detect reality depends on a totem. But the idea to use totems came from Mal, and now has spread to everyone on the team. Because Mal's suicide scene makes no sense, I don't think it was real. It could be that the top does exactly what Mal wants it to do, because she has architected Cobb's dreamworld. Mal has infected Cobb with the idea that he must base his reality on the top, so if she controls the top, she would have control over what he perceives is real (assuming there are no inconsistencies that jar his subconscious.)

Cobb walks away from the top at the end without waiting for the result. It may be that he has stopped caring whether he is living in the real world or not, so long as he can fool himself into believing that it is real and that he is with his kids. Or similarly, he may have thought about the origin of the idea to use the totem, and realized that the top cannot be used to confirm reality (only to confirm a dreamworld, if it keeps spinning.)

The movie withstands any holes, because everything we saw in the movie is in a dreamworld, I believe.

There is one more level of inconsistency, and that is the whole premise of these shared dreams using a suitcase full of technology in what otherwise seems like contemporary times. That's... absurd. Like a dream. On that level, it may be that everything is in Cobb's mind, either a dream or just a psychotic break from reality, and so Mal is removed as dream architect and becomes just a part of his subconscious.

[Hulavuta]

Well, Cobb could have always "pushed" her REALLY far? (It wasn't that far, IMO. I don't remember the movie exactly, so I could be wrong.)

With everything being in a dream....that's kind of crazy, IMO.

About the suitcases, they said it was developed by the military, correct? They made it so the soldiers could shoot and beat the crap out of each other and not actually die. It DOES seem kind of realistic that the military would be able to do such a thing. After all, they did make nuclear bombs...

[Moribund]

My favourite movies right now are Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Back to the Future (I always watch the entire trilogy back to back so I consider it one movie), and I have extremely fond memories of several other movies, but I'd have to watch them again to be sure.

Man but Inception sounds amazing, I'll have to watch it as soon as it's out on Blu-Ray.

[Hulavuta]

Has anyone seen Little Miss Sunshine? (Have I mentioned that before?)

[Moribund]

The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo is a fantastic movie, has anyone seen it?

[Iris]

Man but Inception sounds amazing, I'll have to watch it as soon as it's out on Blu-Ray.

From all I've heard, I should probably prepare for one of those mind-boggling moments, but I guess I'll try to watch it on the theater if my time permits.